TOPIC: 63 Merc 1000 Dist/Ignition problem

Replaced the weep hose like the good Doc prescribed. Will finish replacing the balance and fuel hoses soon, but wanted to see if I could get her fired off before spending any more money. (Yeah, right!)

Compression is good, fuel getting into cylinders fine, but no spark to the plugs. Voltage to and through the resistors okay, "+" side of coils are getting voltage as well. So I remove the side coil wire input terminal (per the manual, so's not to damage the brush) and removed the dist. cap to have a look see. Everything looks okay, contacts could use a good cleaning. Is the rotor button supposed to turn 1/4 turn? (With engine off, stationary.) I read the timing and testing section in the Merc manual, still looking for a section or something on the distributor itself.....?

Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated.

if you are talking about the rotor shaft then yes. how is the belt condensors and continuity on the points.

Belt looks fine Dave, haven't checked the condensers or points yet. It's been a long time, I'll have to study up or have some help here. The condensers you check to make sure you have no continuity from the lead to the case, right? And the points, is it lead to ground should be no resistance (with points closed)?

Usually when I dont have spark on this vintage of motor, it is most likely dirty points. worn points, or out of spec points. They are right in there where the two wire go in above the distributor. take a peek they are probably dirty or not set up correct. Ask questions on how to set them up when you get to that point because it is a bit of a chore to set up the two sets of points.

Conrad

Thanks Conrad, I'm trying to get the rotor off now. (Gotta pull the rotor to get the plate off covering the points and condensers, right?) The book says pull it off, but she's stuck. Also says "if previously installed with locktite, use Merc tool # so and so", which I don't have. Trying not to break it, as they are pretty expensive, as you know. It DOES just pull straight off the shaft, right?

right! make a bridge with 2 peices of wood going across a 3rd the 2 go on either side of the rotor in the wide gap then puush down gently on the 2 peices to lift it up. you can call me if you need 1 914 310 7086. Dave.

Thanks Dave, I'll give it a try like that. I appreciate the help guys!

There is an o-ring on the distributor shaft inside the rotor that makes it a tough pull off.
Prying with anything other than the correct tool creates a real risk of snapping off pieces of the rotor.
Sometimes if you squirt a bit of light oil in between the rotor and its shaft and push IN on the rotor to allow the oil to lube the o-ring before starting the attempt to pull off the rotor it makes it easier.
Write direct if you need to borrow the tool.
Thom
frankenmerc at comcast dot net

That special tool works like a charm.

You're very gracious for offering to loan me the tool Thom, thank you very much for the offer! I'm sure it would have made the job so much easier, but I finally got it off early this morning using a version of Dave's method. The good news is I didn't break it getting it off. The bad news is when it popped off the shaft I had both hands tied up with my "makeshift pulling apparatus", the rotor fell to the concrete floor and guess what!?!? Of course it broke;
Also, when pulling the coil wire from the rear coil I discovered a corroded mess. Looks like an o-ring was inserted into the terminal, which obviously didn't stop corrosion;
Sorry about the blurry pics, my camera is having trouble focusing this close up I guess.
But at least now were down to the "guts and glory" section of the distributor.
The points and condensers look like they're in brand new condition, from what I can see looking upside down! It would sure be a lot easier to unbolt the housing from the adapter and work on it from here on the bench. Is that a complicated drive under there, or would I be better off leaving it mounted on the motor?

One set of points appears to be operating normally, but one set doesn't look like it's closing all the way. It doesn't appear to be moving much as the cam lobe turns......? Ready for further instructions

you can most likely fix the rotor since you have the peice.nekt time lay a towel over it or have help or carpet the floor.

you can most likely fix the rotor since you have the peice.nekt time lay a towel over it or have help or carpet the floor.

Just a few wee bolts and the bottom half of the distributor is off.

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I can not imagine wanting to do the work " upside down " just not worth it.

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Nothing to it.

I agree with the professor - definitely remove the pancake holding the points so you can get-r-dun right.
I have a bunch of those rotors if you need a replacement.
Just write direct.
Thom

On the earlier post on the 1/4 turn of slack on the rotor

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I checked one of a number of tower distributors and yes it has about 1/4 turn " lost motion "

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Maybe that is something left over from the " dockbuster " days of run in opposite rotation capability.

Thanks for clearing that up for me professor. I just figured something was wrong there, I've never seen anything like that before. Of course this is my first venture into a Merc distributor, so I'm learning as I go.

Thank you again to everyone lending me a hand with your knowledge, you'll never know how much I really do appreciate your help. I love working on the magnificent old towers, but without your guidance, it just wouldn't be possible.

Yes it is leftover from the direct reversing motors that is how it got the timing for reverse rotation.

Just reading these posts I'm getting excited about digging into my Merc 700 Ignition problem. It fires on 3 but not all The boat is in storage for a few more weeks before I can tear into it. I
I'm going to give it a try when I get it at my place to work on.

Ok once you have the plate off with the points so you can work on it we can get to work setting up the points.

You mentioned you have the merc manual. So go to Section IV PG 41-42 and read that a few times. That is the page for setting up your points. Its nearly French but it's all there.

First clean those points up nice and check your condensers. This is a guide to checking your condenser: www.ehow.com/how_5526059_test-condenser-small-engine.html

I have been known to just replace them, cause they are cheap. Any auto parts store can get you one. But if they test fine, no sense wasting money.

Ok now the points are clean (dont break them they are very expensive) and the condensers are good assemble and set the points to 7 thousands for initial setting. (I have actually gotten good performance by chance just leaving them both set at 7 thousands) But going further by setting dell is the only way to have a smooth runner.

You see you basically have two ignition systems on that motor 3 cyls run off one point set and the other 3 run off another point set. And if they do not follow each other in time they will fight each other and you will never get the correct spark advance set for all 6 cyls. If wrong the engine will not operate correct.

So with your initial points setting you now need a degree wheel. Any wheel that had 360 degrees on it will work. Print it off on your printer cut it out and put a hole in the middle so the rotor can poke thru. www.texample.net/tikz/examples/degree-wheel/ As you see in Section IV page 41 there is a special tool that goes on your rotor cam to indicate timing. I actually use soldering wire. I wrap it around the cam a few times and run it out like an arm. As long as you dont bump it it will be a good indicator.

Now you want your first set of points to be closed for 90 degrees. And you will have to work backwards (counter clockwise) on this degree wheel. SO put an extra mark on 0, 270, and 210 for now.

Now hook up your continuity meter to the first points set. ( one of the two wires that leave this unit) The other meters lead goes to the case for ground. ( I like alligator clips on my leads to free my hands up)

Now rotate and wait for your points to close once they do move your degree wheel to line up with your 0 mark. Now keep turning slow and watch for the meter to drop(points open) it should be at the next 270 mark (this is 90 degrees) If not adjust your point more open or more closed until you reach 90 degrees "dwell".\ Take your time this is kinda hard.

Now one set of points is set up, now we need to get the second set to follow in time correctly. SO run it around and make sure your didnt bump anything and it still closes on 0 and opens on 270. without moving it when its directly over 270 take your meters lead off point set one and attach it to the other point set. Now the next set of points will follow by 60 degrees. So now watch for your meter to FALL when the next set of points OPEN.(((the second set of points are closed showing continuity at 270, watch for the meter to FALL showing the points opened.)) This needs to happen at the 210 mark you marked out earlier. If its not adjust that points set more open or closed until it happens at the 210 mark.

Your done.

So each set of points is closed for 90 degrees. And each set of points follows the other by 60 degrees.

Now clean up the terminals on the coils and put it back together, i bet they are fine.

Whew, I hope this helps. I know I always struggle to remember every time I do this.

And if someone finds an error please let me know, its hard to keeps straight sometimes.

Conrad

I dont think that chip in the rotor will hurt anything. Ive found chipped rotors just like that in running motors when Ive taken them down for a check up.
Conrad

Thanks for running that procedure down in English, Conrad. I read that section of the manual, and scratched my head. I printed your version, as well as the degree wheel, and will use it in conjunction with the manual. Will let you know how it goes in a few days. (Hard to get anything done during the week.)

Dave B & professor - Now it makes a little more sense about the 1/4 turn "slack", those Direct Reverse motors always mystified me - marvels of engineering to be sure.

ElginDave - I'm hoping the tutoring session by the experts I'm getting will also help others who may have been in the same "boat" as I am....I'll try to post pics and problems, etc. as we go here.

Was at a place buying some parts for a small sailboat

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after talking for a wee while the fellow said so " you like old outboards too , I have something you might like "

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I left with the Degree discs

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91-31484

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91-30356

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91-27778

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and arm 91-27782A1 --all for no money.

I will be watching these posts closly. The more I read the more I think I can fix my 700FGS. I changed out and re-shimmed a Homelite camshaft twice. I think I should be able to do this to the Merc. "Learn by doing"

Okay, got the pancake (dist. hsg.) off the motor. Tip = Remove the wires (and ground strap) first, , linkage arm connection, then the stop plate for timing advance and stop. (Makes it easier to get at the bolt in the back corner. )
The assy on the bench, much easier to work on now; The point contacts look fine, but I'm going to clean them up with a point file anyway just to make sure. The condensers check okay, but I'm using a digital mm, not the analog style as described in the instructions provided. I have to run to the parts store anyway, may get them to check 'em or buy replacements anyway. The lube wicks are black and hard where they are supposed to contact the cam lobes, gonna try to clean them up and re-use. Any particular kind of grease here, or none as the manual indicates?

clean and wash i use dielectric grease some use melted bees wax.i als put some behind the rubbing block.

I use 'distributor cam lube' common at the automotive stores - or at least it used to be before solid state ignitions.
If you're not going to remove the points and polish them up real good - be careful with a points file. I would use a piece of brown paper page before I used points files. (just me though).
I would disassemble the points and polish them personally.
Then set the gap to about .0065 so you'll be real close on the dwell.
Thom

Thanks Thom & Dave, I'll pull them out and do it your way, sounds safer. (I sure don't want to mess them up!) The bearing in there feels kinda "rough", no wobble but feels like sand in there or something. NOW would be the time to address that anyway, right? I'll re-read the manual (umteenth time), but I believe it presses in and out if the points plate is removed? We should have a bearing at work that will work, or I can source one around town here somewhere......no rush.

UPDATE: Once the points are off their plates, the bearing is smooth. Must be the dried up grease on the cam hitting the rubbing blocks making it feel rough. Whew.

Yes please replace the bearings on the cam. There are two in there that hold the cam straight and smooth. Yes the points hold the cam and two bearings in. Watch for spacers and special washers when you pull it and keep them in order. Your timing belt will like you a lot better with smooth bearings.

Now there are two more bearings in the upper section of the distrib housing. Above the plate you just took off. So a total of 4 bearings to replace if you want it to turn smooth again. There are 3 the same 1 different. The one under the small pulley is smaller and different than the lower 3.

Conrad

After pulling the points from the plate, the shaft and bearings lifted right out. And yup, wave washer down under the bottom bearing. I'll go ahead and replace the bearings, they feel smooth and tight but with 48 year old grease inside???? Speaking of timing belts, the one on there now reads "Kiekhaefer Corp 31112" = original ? (I know the number has changed, still available from Merc last I heard.)
Still working on the points clean up - CAREFULLY! There was some oil on them, and a small pit/spike that I'm trying to polish out.

The belt is common on all distributor MERCS from about 1954 to 1978 or so.

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Every dealer ( good one ) will have one in stock.

That would be a pretty good April Fools Joke if we let you get this far and then told you the belts were NLA
Conrad

It sure would be a good one Conrad, (not for me though!). I've been known to act the fool year round, it doesn't have to be the first of April.

I'm going to try to get the old girl running before I tackle the belt replacement, it seems to be satisfactory for testing purposes. I do appreciate the info about it still being available though, seriously.

(Didn't get much done on the motor yesterday, had to take a break and go play on the lake.)

Mark, the spike that you are trying to clean up was caused by a bad condenser for that set of points, there will be a corresponding hole on the other point surface. Make sure you change the condenser.

Thanks Dave, I'll change 'em both out. (Both sets of points had the spike on one side, and the corresponding pit on the other side.) They're too inexpensive to take a chance on having further problems, or having to tear it apart again.

Warning: Old people (such as myself) shouldn't stand with their chin on their chest (looking down at workbench) adjusting points for almost an hour. When you do finally raise your head, there is someone jabbing a knife in your neck! LOL

Worked and worked until I finally had it perfect, then realized I had the points staying open (Conrad said closed, dummy!) 90 degrees, follwed by 60 degrees before the next set opens...............@#$%&@#$^!!!

I'm going out and cut grass for a while to take a break before I throw something.

Finally got the dwell set properly at 90 degrees on both sets of points, re-assembled using new condensers, distributor back on motor. Cleaned the coil wire connections and coils, still no spark to the plugs. Next check - coils themselves? (Highly unlikely they would both go out at once, right?) Any other possibilities?

Is there a ground strap from the distributor to the block Mark? There needs to be if there is not one.



Conrad

Yessir, goes under the rear port side mounting bolt for the pancake and runs to the bracket where the wires are supported (from the block). I'll check continuity on some of the wires next, that will be one I check for sure. (It looked okay.)

I think I may be onto something here. Just checked the coils, here's what I found
Coil 1 - Front
Primary reading 0 ohms resistance
Secondary reading 10.6 ohms resistance
Coil 2 - Rear
Primary reading 0 ohms resistance
Secondary reading 9.9 ohms resistance
(meter set on 200K)
Both coils bad?

Turned the meter down to lowest setting to re-read the primary(s), got a 1.6 or 1.8 or something like that. Looks like maybe the coils are okay after all. This one has me stumped.