TOPIC: '67 80 hp died again "Update"

Bob, the first rebuild kit I used had a rubber/neoprene figure 8 gasket and it looked just like that in no time at all. I replaced it with OMC gasket and it was a much harder rubber impregnated type material and so far so good. Just something to consider.

Ron

Thanks Ron, that's what I ordered this time.

Bob

Well the gaskets came in, much better than the rubber figure 8, stacked pressed gasket, fit perfect should have any break down now. The fuel pump is great now but alas that was not the problem. Didn't think it was the complete problem but was a contributor. It seems I have a spark problem. It does try to fire but dies when it does. It will also backfire. Maybe I have a weak coil. I looked all through my notes but I've managed to loose the ones concerning how to check the coil. Also the previous owner of the motor asked to "borrow" the manual he gave me and he never gave it back. So I'm trying to go form memory. I'm going to get number one on TDC and check the point gap again and make sure it's good. I don't remember (CRS disease rearing it's ugly head again lol) what should the plug wires read with the multimeter?

Bob

Bob,
Is the motor elec shift or manual? The reason I ask is because of the different schematics.
On both the schematics I have it shows the distributor grounded to the power head. When I converted my '67 Johnie to conventional ignition it was stressed to me that the distributor NEEDS a separate ground WIRE directly to the head because of the unreliability of grounding just between the unit and the base. Without a proper ground it will stop on you. Here's some pics of the ground wire on the '67 Johnson. Screws to the frame and a distributor cap screw. If you have the wire make sure it is long and flexible enough to turn with the dist advance.
Cal

A mistake I was making was confusing the charging circuit (alt, rectifier etc.) with the starting, ignition circuit. Two different animals and treated different. Sounds like the problem boils down the ignition circuit only.

If this doesn't help we'll keep pickin' away until it's solved. Eat an elephant one bite at a time

Thanks Cal, yep it's attached. One thing at a time I guess.
Bob

OK, so we know you're grounded, the points are right, the timing is not off a notch or skipped right?? Fuel is delivered, getting air. So we move on.

Ignition wire from distributor to coil is good?

I installed a MSD Blaster coil with an output of 45000 volts. Please don't hang on to the business end of any wires when you test these honkers.

Needed a ballast resistor so I didn't pit the points.
www.jegs.com/i/MSD-Ignition/121/8202/10002/-1

I swear I could burn diesel fuel and have it ignite

Pertronix also has a hot setup that can be used.

Here is the test procedure for a coil, page down to the bench test part.
www.wikihow.com/Test-an-Ignition-Coil

Only three things need to fire up. Fuel, air, spark. One of 'em missing and I guess from what you describe it's spark.

Doing some searching here is a thread from a few years back. Bruce is the fella who walked me through the conversion of my ignition system
www.fiberglassics.com/fiberglassics-forums/home/j-e-g-o-s-place/getting-my-1967-evinrude-80hp-to-run

Thanks Cal. Sitting in Wilmington NC for an old squadron reunion. I'll jump on it when I get back. I do have to make sure the mag hasn't jumped. If I remember right I put a new belt on it and made sure everything was torqued correctly so it wouldn't come lose and skip.

Bob

Well it looks like the coil is bad. It's reading 220k! I do have one fomr the '62 75hp parts motor but it looks like it was already replaced at one point since it's a Delco/remy. I didn't see any balast resistor anywhere though. Do I really need one? Also Einstein here didn't pay any attention to whaich wire was on which post (pos or neg) and the wiring diagram I have doesn't have the coil posts marked positive or negative. Which post does the mag wire got to Negative I assume?

Bob

You assume right. The wire between the coil and the distributor (small one of course) goes to negative (-)
The Positive side of the coil goes to the (ign)of your start key. The ballast resistor if needed goes in series with the ign wire. My understanding that if you use a hot coil, one that is not OEM the resistor saves the points and coil from being destroyed from high voltage.
Here's a paragraph I copied off the net from a Mopar site but it suits our purposes also.
Included are pictures of my setup on the '67 Johnson 100hp that I converted with the hot Blaster coil.

"The ballast reduces the current flow thru the coil at low speeds and keeps the coil from overheating. The coil can handle more amperage but not for long periods of time. So at idle and low eng speeds the points have more time to be closed and thus the current heats the ballast up and causes it to have more resistance and drop current flow at lower eng speeds when full coil output is not needed. When you go faster and speed the eng up the points have less time to be closed so the ballast cools down some and the resistance drops causes more current to flow thru the coil and letting the coil output higher when it is needed at higher eng speeds. And when cranking the ign system needs full output to help start the eng so the ign switch bypases the ballast and gives full battery volts to the coil while cranking.

Cool thanks Cal. I may just see what NAPA has for coils. May as well get a new one then I know I won't have to worry about the Delco/Remy dying on me also. It's been around a while and a little banged up so......

Bob

Well picked up an Accel Super Stock coil and a ballast resistor from Advance Auto. Problem is the ballast resistor is one of those with the built in mounting hole and the back is hollow showing the internal resistor, it's the only one they had. I'm thinking of either a mounting plate with the resistor sealed around the perimeter to the plate to keep moisture etc out or use clear silicone to fill it, but will that affect it, too hot burn up?

Bob

Don't know on that one, maybe someone can chime in. I would leave it open, resistors give off heat. Not much water going under the hood anyway is there? I don't think moisture would affect it if it's designed for under the hood of a car, they get wet also in rain etc

Thanks Cal, good point. Now If I can just get home from work when I still have enough light to work on it I can test it out! LOL

Bob

WORK?????!!

Yeah unfortunately it's getting in the way of my hobbies but I have to pay for them some how!

Bob

Bob,do you still have the original resistor wire for the '62? If the 62 was a battery ignition,it would've had that wire. A wire wrapped in a white cloth type material . If you need a pic let me know. jim

Hmm thanks Jim I'll have to look, I'm not sure. I know the harness on that motor was pretty much toast, the insulation on all the wiring is shot.

Bob

filling the back of the resistor will only hurt the cooling of it.. they are designed to heat up.. when installed on a car they were mounted under the hood open to all the elements..so i dont see any issue with one being mounted under your engine cover..

Thanks, the problem is this brackish water is eating everything alive! That's what I was worried bout.

Bob

Ok so I installed the new coil and ballast resistor and no joy. Looked at the timing and it looked like the belt had jumped a tooth. Reset it and still no joy. So I decided to check number 1 cylinder for top dead center and sure enough flywheel wasn't where it was supposed to be. Pulled the flywheel and this is what I found.


Gee is this a problem!?!?!?!! LOL Well now I know why the timing was so far off!!!!!!!!!! Looks like I'll need to order a new key since there isn't enough there to determine the exact size it needs to be to get it locally.

Bob

Congrats Bob, The good, bad and ugly. Good that the problem is finally found and fixable without much expense. You have new fuel parts, a hot coil and no more problems, bad that you missed some quality water time. The ugly is that smooooshed key. Make sure you torque it down to spec when you install the new one.

Thanks Cal, well out but don't give upon me yet. I'll get that key and have her back together by next weekend and be on the water. I'm not giving up on the season yet!

Bob

Ataboy Bob, should be a few good weekends left before the winter sets in! Hang in there with it buddy.

Thanks Mark, working it as best I can. Part is on order along with some new rubber seal for the bottom cowling the old one was mostly gone and the cover rattles something awful.

Bob

Woo Hoo, the key came in today! Now if it would just stop raining enough for me to work on it and get it back together!

Bob

Here ya go.....

Nice!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol Believe it or not I don't own one. I guess I'm a fair weather worker in my old age.

Bob

bob just a suggestion before ya install that key get some valve grinding compound and lap the flywheel in before installing that key it may help you never break another

Excellent, thanks Jeff great idea.

Bob

Ok, so the new key came in and I lapped the flywheel and shaft, installed the key and went to town. Apparently Einstein here didn't make sure the key was in correctly and almost sheared it off again! It still wouldn't start but backfired again. Took the flywheel off and sure enough key was not in correctly, so the flywheel spun again. Took the key out and filed it down, put it back on for now until I order yet another one.

Anyway, thought I had it back together right, tried to start but was running crappy and very hard to start. Switched back to the old coil, looked at the magneto again and it looked like it was off one tooth. Reset it again and it started finally, but still running crappy. tried to readjust the low speed jets but no joy. It won't stay running unless I have it at max throttle for neutral (just past start setting). I put the new coil back in and tried again. It starts eventually but still runs crappy, it misses every once in a while.

I don't have a manual anymore so I was going from memory. Flywheel with TDC mark lined up with case mark for #1 TDC, magneto pointer lined up with pointer on arm, rotor inside magneto lined up with #1 wire terminal (terminology?) in the cap. I believe that's correct isn't it?

I'm not exactly sure where the connecting arms from the magneto and throttle should be but currently have the throttle at start with the magneto pointer and arm pointer lined up and both linkage arms tightened so that occurs.

Spark plugs are a little black on the tips but otherwise fine. points are good and set to .020, plug gaps are .032 and using NGK B7S.

So what am I missing?

Bob

Ok so new key came in along with new rubber seal for around the cowling to stop the rattling.

Here's what the new coil looks like.

So it tried to set the timing with the mark I thought it was supposed to be, number one in the picture, using the red notch on the magneto cam, not shown in the pic. It started a little hard but when it finally fired it ran like a rapped ape with the throttle all the way down to idle. I did reset the throttle linkage and magneto linkage per the '63 75 hp info I could get a hold of. Couldn't get it to idle down for anything.


So I then though maybe that wasn't the timing mark I was supposed to use so I used the one in the pic below marked 3. It wouldn't start, to far out I guess so that's not it.


So I guess my question is should I use the pointer marked number 2 in the previous pic? Sorry I'm a little lost without the manual and the '63 75 hp pages I could find didn't describe my set up.

Any suggestions?

Bob

Every time I get an email notice of your posting I expect to see that you have it running like a top. I'll scan as much info on timing and setup as I can find tonight a pass it along. Meanwhile here's a link that might help you. Not the same engine but I think they are all similar.

Here are some scans I took from a Clymer book and also some pic of the timing marks on the 100 hp Johnson. The first pic is hard to see the mark on the flywheel guard but it's general idea of where it's at. The second pic is of the timing mark on the distributor holder. It's marked with a white line and hard to find on the motor if you don't know where to look. Took me about a week of scratchin'.

Thanks Cal. Yeah the flywheel is not problem, the magneto is what's Kicking my ass. LOL I'll check it again tomorrow after work and see what I get.

Bob

Cal thanks that worked. Woo Hoo, it's alive!!! I do feel like an idiot, can't believe I didn't see that line. Of course painting it the factory color (for the '62) made it real dark and hard to see.

Starts right up now but still not as smooth as it should be. I need to run some more Sea Foam through the tanks. Now I just have to get her back on the water and do the final tweaking!

Now I can turn the focus back on the Century.

Bob

Like I said, it took me at least a week to find that line also. It was painted the black of the frame. The odd place and dark shadows don't help.
Glad she's running. Get her out on the water and enjoy for awhile. the woodie ain't going anywhere.

Will do! Supposed to rain all day tomorrow, maybe Sunday.

Bob

Well finally got her out for the first time this year, last Sunday!! Yeah I know waayyyy late. Life in the way crappy weather blah blah blah. Anyway ran for about 15 minutes and quite. thought it was the old gas, switched to the new tank, ran for 1 minute then died. Tried again nothing. Poured some gas down the carb, fired and quit. I had the Admiral turn it over while I held the carb wide open in case it was flooded. Let it set. Poured a little in turned It over and nothing. Had to have the tow of shame from my buddy. Took it home and stayed out all day on his boat.

So checked the flywheel again to make sure it didn't spin yet again. Nope it's ok, checked for spark but battery was dead, ARGH!!! Charged it yesterday but checked the coil, it measures ok, better it's new! Checked the coil wire, it's good. Start checking the plug wires and I'm getting readings all over the place, not to mention no reading at all on #4, unless I held it a certain way. Sooooo it looks like I need to just put a new set of wires on. I guess I should have done that anyway since I put that new super coil on there.

Dumb question since I've never had to replace the wires on any of my motors yet, how do they come out of the distributor cap? Are they supposed to twist out?

I see that Sierra ahs a 5 wire set al made so I may just got that route so I don't have to build up new ones. Price seems to be about what it would coat for all new parts to make some. Thoughts?

Bob

Bob, I pull the s''''' out of 'em.
Been a long time since I did that so someone else will have to chime in. My local dealer sells ignition wire by the foot, solid core stuff, new plug connectors also. You can make your own. Just don't do like I did and forget which wire goes to what plug
You beat me on the water...still haven't gotten out this year. Tied up rebuilding my Lone Star Mystic.

I do believe those wires unscrew from the cap.