TOPIC: '67 80 hp died again "Update"

glad you got it wet, nice looking boat and good going in keeping at it till you fixed it, and cal . lol frog

Great to hear,Bob. I had faith in ya. Always a treat to see one of those old evenrods cruising down the way.

Thanks guys. Ran another three tanks of gas through her yesterday. Had to make up for lost time. Didn't go out today, had to catch up on other stuff including the Resorter.

Bob

Way to go Bob, I'm happy for you.

Great news Bob. I stayed out of this one cause I didn't have anything to offer. That doesn't mean that I wasn't rooting for you.

Thank you for learning lessons so I won't have to.

Thanks guys!

Rdubyau, I always say everyone is an example, good or bad, your still an example. LOL

Bob

SO the saga continues! Got back out again this weekend but she still isn't running right. I was running new gas through her with some Sea Foam for good measure. She pops and snorts when on the hose and still feels like she was holding back when at half throttle or idling. It's like I could feel one cylinder kick in and stop once in a while. The only thing I haven't replaced yet is the plugs, but I put new ones in when I started this project. They're a NGK 7 I think, going from memory as I'm at work right now and can't double check it but I will when I get home.

I know the originals are J4C Champions but I thought I had crossed them to the NGK's. Still have to look at them and make sure they aren't gunked up, shouldn't be though since I'm going with 50 to 1 TCW-3 Quicksilver oil.

Another problem is that it still won't start without being primed with some gas down the Carb throat. Choke on or not.

Bob

Sorry to hear you're still having trouble Bob! The cross is B7S in NGK, I'd at least pull the plugs and have a look. (Maybe just clean them up and re-install?)

The "no start without priming" sure sounds like a carb/fuel problem to me - may be the cause of your other troubles as well. Just my two cents, hope you get her figured out soon.

Thanks Mark, that's what I was thinking. I planned on taking the carb apart and looking at it again. Still not sure what would make one cylinder want to pop in and out though if it's not the plugs. All new wires, good cap and points.

Bob

Well I took the cover off the motor today to remove the carb and I found the flywheel nut almost off!!!!! Well after checking to make sure I didn't shear a key again I tightened it back down. Removed the carb and the only thing funny I found was that the intake gasket was ripped through on bank 2 & 4 side. Carb looked fine inside, a couple of little pieces, like almost micro small but nothing glaring. Blew it all out with some air and put it back together. Have to order another intake gasket though. Thought I had one but can't seem to find it anywhere so order it is.

I took the plugs out though and this is what I found:



Unless I'm seeing things it looks like plug number 2 isn't firing, if so not very often. They also seem a little gunky and not sure why, I'm using 50 to 1 mix. Any ideas or comments?

Bob

Get the plugs back in Bob, times a wastin' Got out with the old Johnson this evening. There really is a Green BAY. Unbelievable temps so far, supposed to be in the upper 70's the whole week so I've got a lot of catching up to do. This is the motor that Bruce guided me through on the conversion from cdi to coil, points.

She looks great Cal, glad you could get her out!

Bob

So put the cleaned plugs back in and made sure the bad number 2 plug was in number one position. Yep ran even worse, as I suspected, so bad plug. Auto parts store didn't have the Champions in stock but should be in tomorrow.

The electric choke had some fuel in it for some reason, when I took the carb apart. Cleaned it up and put it back together. Pushed in the button and after a few turns the motor started so hopefully that takes care of having to prime the carb from down the throat.

New plugs will go in tomorrow and we'll see if it gets better.

Bob

Well the saga continues!!!!!!!I think the boat gods, well motor gods hate me!!!

Put the new plugs in and it still didn't start right away as I'd hoped. Got it started and it still isn't running smoothly. Put it in gear and ran it up for a minute and it started to make a weird grindingesk kind of sound. Plenty of water going through it and lower unit is full of oil. Throttled back and it died.

Took it out of gear and tried to start it again and it was making the weird sound again as it was cranking. Let it sit, checked the plugs to see how they looked, looked fine on all. Tried starting it again and it actually backfired but after many cranks it started. Ran it at 1/4 throttle in neutral, then it made that bad grinding sound and died.

Prop shaft spins freely, starter was hot enough to cook eggs on and I could still hand spin the flywheel so engine isn't seized. I'll let the starter cool down and get a compression check I guess and see what I have. Don't want to pull the "inspection" covers or heads prematurely.

As far as when I'm trying to start it, it's almost like the timing is off again but I checked the flywheel when the nut came loose and it didn't look like it sheared. All the timing marks line up.

I'm about to give up un this thing but I don't really have a back up. I can put the Fat Fifty back on but that would mean filling the lower and upper holes again and re-drilling the top hole for the Fatty. Then I'd still have the solenoid issue I had before. I could also restore the '61 800FGS Merc but that would take most of the winter and time away from the Resorter restoration. I just can't seem to get ahead here! AAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

There I fell better now. LOL

Thought about switching to a 70's model and maybe adapt the old housing eventually, but can't seem to find any 70's in the area. Haven't checked fleabay yet.

Thoughts anyone?

Signed,
Exasperated ( aka Bob)

Shut 'er down, work on the resorter. Inspiration will hit you about 4am.

Well did a compression check and they're all 93-95. Still wouldn't start and backfired again! So I did what I really didn't want to do, pull the flywheel again and sure enough, sheared the damn flywheel key AGAIN!!!! Got one on order should be here Wednesday. That explains the weird grinding/scraping sound I heard, must have been the flywheel spinning on the crank so to speak.

not sure why the heck it still shearing. I lapped the flywheel to the crank after the last one but I guess I need to do it some more. It was also suggested that I use Loctite so I'm going to do that also. I'm sure that nut coming loose didn't help it any. I'm not sure why the heck that came loose either. There isn't a lock washer that goes under it, it's just the nut against the flywheel, although it seems the flywheel doesn't go all the way down on the crankshaft for some reason. It doesn't go flush with the end of the shaft like you would think but the belt lines up with the distributor so I'm assuming it's going down as far as it should.

Bob

Bob, donno right off the top of this bald knoggin but what are you torqueing at? On my old '58 35hp Johnson the flywheel was torqued @ 105 ft. lbs. Hard getting there, after 85 she was a b---h. There was a lock washer under the nut when I removed it. I cab look see in my Clymer manual.

Yeah thought I had hit it last time but I guess not. It's not easy trying to get enough leverage, had to put two small steel rods in the o0uter holes then use a 1/2" driver breaker bar between the rods while pulling on the torque wrench on the nut!


Bob

And the saga continues!!!! Well the key came in and put it on. Set the timing or so I thought. Started hard but got going and sounded like it was still missing. Looked again and the distributor was one tooth off! Reset it and tried to start it again. No joy, backfired again and then the battery was about dead so it's on hold until tomorrow when the battery has charged again. I'm really beginning to loose patience with this damn thing!

Bob

I know the feeling, sometimes it never pays to get out of bed.

Well she started right up with the battery charged but she's still "popping" some when trying to idle or at mid throttle.

Bob

Well got it back together and running again. Took my aunt and uncle out yesterday since they hadn't been on the boat in over 30 years. Got through 2 tanks of gas, headed into our favorite watering hole and it died 5 yards form the pier. no biggie, paddled to the dock, figured I worry about restart after some libations and appetizers. Here's the result.


Had to call my buddy for a tow! Tried to start it when we came back out and no joy. Took the cover off and the damn flywheel nut was almost all the way off AGAIN! I'm about to turn this motor into an anchor! Anyone want a '67 80hp cheap?? lol I have to look at it but I'm sure it sheared the damn key again. Thanks goodness I ordered two. I may have to order a new nut or something. maybe I can find a thin lock nut as this isn't a very think nut for its size.

Bob

Bob, if it's any comfort I've been in that sled dog position behind a sheriff's boat, a fishing tug, and a good Samaritan. Gets to the point where a simple "thank you " isn't good enough.
Anyway just thinking. How easy does key slide into the flywheel grooves? If it's a loose fit you're going to have slop no matter how many ft lbs are torqued on it. Sorta like giving it leverage. Are those keys aluminum or steel? Might think about hitting up your local ACE or True Value hdw store with the flywheel in hand and get a really tight key. Maybe with all the shearing the flywheel itself is getting worn out. Just a thought.
Cal

Man, what a saga.

Bob, since this thing has spun so many times, the flywheel bushing may be damaged - or "wallowed" out. Just a couple thousandths of an inch can render it junk. Have you check that the shoulder on the crankshaft snout is below the finished area of the flywheel - where the nut tightens against? I have seen them where the crank shoulder is too near the top of the flywheel, and when the nut is tightened, the flywheel is brought down to the same level as the crank shoulder. This means the nut is tightened against the crank, but the force is not applied to the flywheel surface. When fully torqued, there must always be a gap between the top of the flywheel (where the nut is tightened against it) and the land of the crankshaft snout. If the flywheel drops onto the crank too far, either get another flywheel, or shim the nut with a hardened washer that will clear the land on the crank & allow the nut to clamp the force to the existing flywheel.

Also, you may want to use blue locktite (removable) on the flywheel nut, and us an air impact driver to tighten the nut. I had a chrysler that had this same problem you are having. So I used an air impact driver with 3/4 drive (like one for lug nuts on a wheel) and held the bastard on the flywheel nut till I thought she would bust off. It solved the problem. So now, I always use an air impact driver on outboard flywheel nuts.

I drew you a pic of the issue I talked about here and I'm attaching it here

Cal, yep steel keys. I owe my neighbor big time now, that's twice he's had to bail me out! LOL

Bruce thanks. I put the new key in the flywheel slot and it's tight at the deep section but probably a little loose at the very shallow part. Is that an issue in the shallow area? As far as I can tell the shaft is below the flywheel but I really need to check it again. I've lapped the flywheel to the shaft twice now but I don't think it made it too big since I didn't do it for any longer than maybe a minute both times. I'll have to check it tomorrow.

Bob

Bob, looks like maybe Pull Toy 2. lol

I would check to see if the bottom of the flywheel is touching the points cam. get some modeling clay and put a thin ring on top of the points cam and bolt every thing together then pull back apart and see if the clay is gone completely or a small amount still there. It might not be loading on the tapper and on the points cam.

Frog....you knew this was coming right?

Good one Greg!

Charles, no points cam on this one. It's actually a '67 inside a '62 housing. The points are in the distributor.

Bob

I know you have checked every thing is there any chance that the flywheel has a crack in the taper around the key or a shoulder on the crank that the flywheel is touching. The taper is what holds the flywheel. Make sure the taper is clean and dry I have used tapered assemblies as Harley cranks are bolt together assemblies. Go to a machine shop and have the flywheel magnifluxed.

Don't know, good point, I'll have to check. I also have to check what Bruce said. Can't recall off the top of my head if the flywheel was going all the way down or not. Thought the shaft shoulder was below the top surface of the flywheel but maybe not. I'll know more tonight when I get home form work.

Bob

What is the torque for the nut. Is it the stock nut? The ones on a harley are only 5/16 thick and torque any where from 125 to 424 lb.
I can't stress that the taper is clean and dry use brake cleaner or acetone to clean it with. If you have some Prussian blue you can use it to see if the taper has a good contact.

I think it's 105lb and I've lapped it twice with valve lapping compound.

Bob

Well after closer inspection it looks like about 1/8" before the flywheel meets the shaft shoulder so...... Looks like it's time for some more lapping and an impact gun.

Bob

Can you take some pic's of the taper surfaces before you put it back together?

Charles, I'll try in the morning.

Bob

Well here's what the crankshaft and flywheel look like.





So it looks like the keyway has degraded a bit at the shallow end but I wouldn't figure that was enough to make the nut keep coming loose. The meaty end is dine and tight with a new key.

Bob

IMHO that flywheel has spun too many times and the taper and/or keyway are trashed.

I think you're gonna have more trouble with it unless it's replaced.

HTH.............ed

that flywheel doesnt look in the best of shape.. since you do keep having problems with it and its not a 1 time thing... myself i'd replace the flywheel... and use some Loctite on the threads,,
and i'd zap that flywheel nut with a air gun..

Hate to say this Bob but it does look like the female part is spun out, grooves and all. It doesn't look like you would have to replace the entire flywheel, just the part that screws onto it. Time to start searching


These guys are right up the road from me, I know them well, worked together for over 20 years. Might be what you need.