TOPIC: Ethanol

A good friend of mine wrote up the following subsequenta very informative seminar he attended.
I thought it was worth posting here, and he authorized this posting.
Doc F

"I spent the last two days at Rottler Manufacturing in Kent WA attending a joint AERA regional show in conjunction with Rottler's 90th anniversary in business. Both of these two businesses are in the engine rebuilding business on a world wide basis. Very well attended event with people from North and South America and Europe. First class event. I have not heard how many of the $800K honing machines they sold..... I attended four of the formal technical seminars along with the trade show.

One of the seminars was put on by a Chemical engineer that is one of 300 certified in the world that investigative work for failure analysis of engines using oil analysis to predict and to pin point causes. At the end of the seminar it switched to questions and answer deal. The subject of fuels came up, which almost started another complete seminar. The presenter was an expert on fuels, diesel and gas and loves the subject. Once the discussion started, he started pulling up, off the cuff, pictures, graphs, chemical breakdowns on his laptop all kinds of information about the Fuels, e-10, E-15 (and the e-20 that will be showing up here in the near future), not apart of his regular presentation on "designer oils" in the market place.

My overall take away was that I want to pass on to you all is that these old mercs need to stay away from the ethanol mixed fuels at all costs. The documented damage to aluminum, zinc, steel, fuel lines,cranks, carburetors, and any type of seal (valve, O-rings crank seals, mating gaskets) produced before 1996 is incredible. The Ethanol mixture attacks aluminum and steel....which is what carbs are made of... Some of the pictures show what it did to steel and aluminum fuel tanks, carbs, fuel pumps... Pictures of carbs that were ran and then sit for six months were plugged solid, with metal eaten away from the body of the carb so much so it could not be rebuilt. The presenter was not there to talk about Ethanol or Ultra Low Sulpur Diesel but it turned into such an informative after the planned meeting the nobody left. The bad new is that there are a number of products are sold now on the market that are supposed to counter act the ethanol....but his take from a chemical engineers point of view did little if anything to stop the corrosiveness of the Ethanol in the fuel...( it did make the owner of the vehicle feel better).

The discussion finally went to the caloric value of a gallon of fuel ( five basic tiers of fuel in the world, USA uses mostly tier 5 some tier 4 level and with in those levels are 40 different blends in a season and those blends change 3x per year. So in the USA, Tier 5 fuel converts to 120 different formulas and that does not take into account " additive packages" that the wholesaler may add. The caloric % value drops with at the same rate the equal to % ethanol added. What this means is that horsepower output of your engines will drop at least 10% with E-10, 15% with E-15 and 20% with E-20. Oh yes, that is before the "damage" has started to take place, once that starts your performance goes down even more."
Bob P


This helps me understand why I have been finding slimey globs of wet corrosion in carburetors I had recently cleaned for folks, after I had also purged the related hoses and filters.
I found it odd that I wasn't having the issues in my own carburetors and assumed the owners were somehow getting water in their fuel tanks or something.
Now I know why I was 'so lucky',...I only run 100LL in my Mercs.
No ethanol.
Doc

pure-gas.org

Very interesting doc. I guess the safest way to preserve these old mercs is to run them dry after each outing. Any thoughts on that? Ron

vuyosevich wrote:

Very interesting doc. I guess the safest way to preserve these old mercs is to run them dry after each outing. Any thoughts on that? Ron

Well, I would suggest a different approach. Running a single carb 2 stroke ok, but not multiple carbs. One might run out of gas before the others, and now running cylinders dry sure can't be good with no oil. JMHO

It is bad stuff to be sure, and it will get worse not better when they up the dosage on that stuff. I hear that a good substitute is tequila of all things, more plentiful and is cheaper! Apparently is less harmful as well.

how bout running them dry using fogging oil? no ethanol free petro in my state.
b]Robby321 wrote:[/b]

vuyosevich wrote:

Very interesting doc. I guess the safest way to preserve these old mercs is to run them dry after each outing. Any thoughts on that? Ron

Well, I would suggest a different approach. Running a single carb 2 stroke ok, but not multiple carbs. One might run out of gas before the others, and now running cylinders dry sure can't be good with no oil. JMHO

gfgarland wrote:

It is bad stuff to be sure, and it will get worse not better when they up the dosage on that stuff. I hear that a good substitute is tequila of all things, more plentiful and is cheaper! Apparently is less harmful as well.

I can,t wait for the tequila substitute.

pure-tequila.helpmegod

Just run the carburetors dry !!

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The oil just does not disappear from the parts when one carburetor runs out of fuel!!!!

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The fine details of 2 stroke lubrication are just not well understood.

I always ran my 650 as dry as i could using choke on & off at end to suck as much gas as possible out of the carb, never had a problem but that was before crap gas.... must be a pain trying to find gas without ethanol?

Have not ever seen a " warning " of any kind in manuals or on gas tanks about cylinders running dry on multiple carburetor motors.---Just another tall tale in the world of boating.

True about the carbs, run them dry EXCEPT if you have an EFI system. They have to be put away wet, with a good fuel stabilizer added and run through first. Very important! Now as to the tequila, check this out.
crave.cnet.co.uk/cartech/tequila-mooted-as-eco-friendly-biofuel-for-cars-salt-and-lemon-optional-50004568/

Great info Doc - thanks -

I was out on a ride with some friends in Pennsylvania farm country and stopped at a NON-franchise gas station/mini-mart (we were lost, which was the idea of course). They sold ethanol free gas, 93 octane I think. I recall thinking that it was just a bit too far from my house that I would make a special trip to buy tanks of fuel. Not any more. Now just have to figure out where it was (if puregas.org doesn't help)

UPDATE:
Total Score! Via pure-gas.org I located that station and called. 87 octane, E-Free, $3.74 / gallon. At least a 30 minute drive one way (ok, probably 45), but if I buy 24 gallons at a pop and I can protect the old girl - worth the trip. 24 gallons would be filling both boat tanks and my two 6 gallon standard tanks.

I wish it was available here. The nearext stations listed to me are at least 500 miles away. they are up near the Oregon border. I didn't check AZ but that is at least 200. CA wanrs the Oxygenated fuels which means the want the ethanaol but they don't want e85 which is a good thing. I take gobs of slimy stuff out of the lines of my hotrod all of the time any more.

Back in the day, as a kid I was taught to always run a motor dry that was not used regularly. This was to prevent the gas remaining in the fuel system from turning to shellac. The shellac and dried shellac flakes would clog up the filters and carbs. People would say “My carbs are all gummed up, need to clean the fuel system”. Products where available to clean the gum out and prevent the problem…Gumout.

There is bright side to the ethanol problem, look at all the jobs it creates. All the testing, development and marketing involved. More products are needed to prevent the expensive damage. It ruins parts, so more parts are need for repairs. Repair costs are much higher, to the point a person may opt to buy a new motor. I think they call it job growth thru legislation for pennies a gallon.

Bottom line for me. Use a stabilizer in any fuel that will not be used right away. Run engine out of fuel if not used regular. Fill tanks to the very top after use if not used regularly. Inspect fuel lines and filter regularly, the NAVY calls it pre-op & post-op. Use only ethanol resistant fuel lines, and install a visible water separator/filter.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Hopefully farmers will still grow cereal grains instead of corn for alcohol.

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We do need lots of cheap barly for some thirst quenchers and flour for bread and hamburger buns.

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Does not really help if there is cheap fuel and no affordable bread to eat.

Amen to that.