TOPIC: Starter solenoid?

1967 Thunderbolt 500, battery new- 500 CCA marine start, connections clean and tight. Starter seems to work OK unless it sits over night in cooler temps (which in Central Az is about 60 F). When trying to start first time in the morning it will click but not turn, eventually it will start but only after multiple key turns. Appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

sounds like a dirty starter, dissemble clean with compressed air, 220 sand paper the commutator & regrease the end caps & bushing etc

If servicing the starter doesn't help, it's probably the starter solenoid. The contacts carry a lot of current and after years of service they get burnt/charred then won't pass voltage to the starter.

If you have trouble finding one of the larger, old solenoids, any of the smaller ones found on later-model Fours and Sixes, amongst others, would work as well. You'd just have to modify the mounting a bit.

HTH & let us know what you find............ed

check with a volt meter and see if you get voltage thru the solonoid to the started.

MadProps wrote:

sounds like a dirty starter, dissemble clean with compressed air, 220 sand paper the commutator & regrease the end caps & bushing etc

Wouldn't happen to have an exploded view of that starter or a procedure on that, anyone?

Thanks.

I can do better, I have a starter to clean up tomorrow or so & I will video it for you

MadProps wrote:

I can do better, I have a starter to clean up tomorrow or so & I will video it for you

I'm recommending you be canonized!

Here's the starter I have. Looks like an antique!

Curses! She did me again! Won't turn when cold. After many "clicks," it turns. I cleaned it real good, like MadProps suggested but- nope! So, were back to the solenoid then?
If yes, where's a good place to shop for those?


Thanks.

dealer items are the best. more $$$$ but worth it.MHO

By,...'cleaned it real good',...Do you mean you disassembled and followed MadProps' directions?
If so,...And after re-assembly,...Did you 'bench test' the starter with jumper cables and a well charged 12v battery?

If you don't know what I mean here just ask - that's how we learn.
I'm not sure what level you are at and I mean no offense if I explain things with too much detail.

Anyway - It should have spun up real fast in a bench test.

Next step is to test the solenoid.
You'll need a volt meter for this one.
Put the solenoid on the bench (or leave it on the motor)
If you leave the solenoid in place on the motor be sure and disconnect the large cable from the solenoid that goes to the lower terminal on the starter and tape up the bare end of this cable. We are going to test the solenoid and don't want the starter engaging, etc during this test.

Using jumper cables attached to the battery, put the red (+) cable to the large Primary 12v (+)positive terminal on the solenoid. (for reference,...the red cable coming from the internal harness in the Merc's lower engine pan and goes to the solenoid goes to this same Primary 12v(+)positive large terminal)

Put the (-) jumper cable to one of the small terminals on the solenoid (if you have the solenoid on the work bench) or clamp it to the (-) ground terminal at the top of the starter body if everything is still on the motor.

Now set your voltage tester to DC voltage so it can read in the 12-15 volt dc range.

Clamp the (+) red test lead onto the large terminal on the solenoid opposite the large primary terminal. (the terminal you want here is the one that has the large cable going over to the lower terminal on the starter body that you currently have taped off to keep it from shorting to gorund during testing.

Clamp the (-) black tester lead either on the same small terminal of the solenoid as you put the (-) jumper cable - OR - to the same (-) terminal at the top of the starter body.

Now clip a jumper wire (made from a piece of insulated #12 or #14 stranded copper) onto the Primary 12v(+)positive terminal on the solenoid.

Now you are ready to test the solenoid.
Hold the other end of your jumper wire against the small terminal on the solenoid that is not being used for the (-) ground circuit.
(it will be the same terminal that the yellow wire from the internal harness attaches to when things are assembled)

As you hold the jumper wire against this small terminal the solenoid should make a 'CLICK' sound and equally important,...The voltage test meter should now be reading 12vdc.
If the tester doesn't read at least 12 vdc - and - you are confident all the test connections are good,...You need a new solenoid.

If the solenoid 'CLICK' is heard and your voltage testor reads 12vdc,...Your solenoid is good and you have a different problem to find.

At this point if the solenoid tests good, I would thoroughly clean the connections at the starter, at the solenoid, and I would disassemble whatever type of connections you have at the battery - both (+) & (-) and clean them thoroughly or replace them if corrosion is found.
So many times it ends up being the evil connections at the battery so even though they might 'look' good,...disassemble them and thoroughly clean them.
Carefully inspect the main battery cables too for swollen areas that might have a nasty corroded area concealed from view by the insulation.

Keep us posted,
Thom

Nevermind,Thom beat me to it.

By,...'cleaned it real good',...Do you mean you disassembled and followed MadProps' directions? Check- did so with slavish devotion and much gratitiude.

If so,...And after re-assembly,...Did you 'bench test' the starter with jumper cables and a well charged 12v battery? Check- Spun like a whirling dervish.

Will let you folks know how it goes with solenoid. I do hear that click each and every time I turn the key, however the starter will fail to spin intermittently. When it does invariably,it's been exposed to lower temperatures, though sometimes it does start when it's cold. Changing batteries doesn't fix it. It will spin eventually and give no more trouble till it's cold- then it's a crapshoot. Hope that sheds light on this. Will recheck connections- battery and cables are new and clean up to motor.

I appreciate all your help! I actually have above average experience with automotive engines- with those, starters are usually removed, bench tested at the the parts place, and replaced entirely whether the solenoid is the problem or the starter itself. With lifetime warranties on these parts, very few people do it the "old school" way anymore so my experience with starters is pretty much R&R.

Try 12 volts directly to the starter. If it turns over you will know if it is the solenoid or not. My Merc 700 did that. But would work fine if I jumped it to 12v direct. I replaced the solenoid. Now works fine.

I use to rebuild them as one of my first jobs. Use rebuild alternators and starters. Automotive but pretty much the same thing. If the solenoid checks out, you may have a dead spot in the starter armature. Could be that when it's cold the copper between the winding and the comutator seperate just enough to make a dead spot and the brush won't conduct through the comutator in that spot. When it's warm enough the copper swells enough to make a good connection and no problems. That's just a theory of course. Have seen it happen on old Ford starters that had the solenoid on the firewall and not integral to the starter.

You'd have to really inspect the armature around the commutator to see if there were any bad solder joints and gaps. Not much you can really do about it either unless you have a BIG soldering iron. If not it's a new armature or probably just a new starter.

I'm betting on the solenoid though.
GOod luck.

Bob

Finally got to the solenoid test that Thom presribed. Tested several times. Each time, the solenoid clicked and read 12 volts. The connections are clean and in good condition. Can solenoids operate intermitently? If so, I suppose it's possible that it was in "good mood" when I tested but it seems to be OK. Suggestions?

Thanks.

did you try 12v directly to the starter yet?

In theory Thoms test would show up a dead solenoid, however, if the contacts are dirty and high resistance the 12 V will still read on the voltmeter but you would never draw enough current through it to turn the starter. You need to put 12 v to the starter directly when the starter is cold. Put it in the freezer if you have to. If it turns ok when cold it is your solenoid.

Daveswaves wrote:

In theory Thoms test would show up a dead solenoid, however, if the contacts are dirty and high resistance the 12 V will still read on the voltmeter but you would never draw enough current through it to turn the starter. You need to put 12 v to the starter directly when the starter is cold. Put it in the freezer if you have to. If it turns ok when cold it is your solenoid.

I did a bench test- battery direct to starter, after cleaning and reassembly, as per MadProps instructions. (Didn't place it in the freezer though!) It spun up everytime I tried it. Then, a few days later I started the motor in the driveway- started right up. A few weeks later at the lake- Click, Click, click. It drives me nuts when a fault it intermittent- like trying to nail jelly to the wall!

the solenoid is grounded well? tight, and ground strap from one of the small posts to starter mounting bolt/nut? when you're out and it's clicking, have you tried adding a temporary ground between the solenoid & the starter?

i was having similar problems, and finally found a brand new oem solenoid on ebay and snapped it up. put it on after season was over, so next year is my test.

good luck with it!

frank

How about this? Since it insists upon failing when it wants to, wait till it fails, then bypass the solenoid and get power sraight to the starter. (Sounds like what Frank is saying) If it starts, I know the solenoid is the probelm, if not it's the starter. I'm pretty sure mechanics do this but like I said earlier, it's kind of old school and I've not actually done it on any of my vehicles. If yes, what are correct terminals to jump on my particular set up? Meanwhile I'll remove each connection, no matter how good it looks, hit 'em with the wire brush (again), and tighten them down.

Thanks.

Ok, here is another way to test it, get a trailer light socket or pigtail light bulb socket, install a 12 Vbulb, 1057 or 1157 whatever socket you have.

Connect one wire to the starter plus terminal and one wire to the starter ground terminal or another ground if more convenient.

Here is what to look for: if the light bulb lights up bright when you turn the key to start...the starter has a bad section on the commutator.

If the light does not come on when you turn the key to start and you hear the click;;;your solenoid is bad.

The light bulb will only come into play if the starter is not turning (which is your problem). If the starter is turning the light bulb may light up slightly but not as bright as a normal bulb connected to 12V.
If the light bulb is dim while the starter is turning but flashes bright every once in a while you have a bad segment on your commutator.

You can leave this hooked up until you experience the problem, it will not hurt anything.

what i do is run a line to the positive lug of the starter direct from the battery. then i touch a negative cable from the same battery to the body of the starter to see if it spins. very simple, straightforward & quick. you could use good jumper cables if need be, i just prefer direct battery cables. be prepared for the starter to spin as soon as you touch the body of the starter with the ground cable. it can be surprising

You guys are great! I'm confident I'll solve this problem now! Let you know.

Daveswaves wrote:

Ok, here is another way to test it, get a trailer light socket or pigtail light bulb socket, install a 12 Vbulb, 1057 or 1157 whatever socket you have.

Connect one wire to the starter plus terminal and one wire to the starter ground terminal or another ground if more convenient.

Here is what to look for: if the light bulb lights up bright when you turn the key to start...the starter has a bad section on the commutator.

If the light does not come on when you turn the key to start and you hear the click;;;your solenoid is bad.

The light bulb will only come into play if the starter is not turning (which is your problem). If the starter is turning the light bulb may light up slightly but not as bright as a normal bulb connected to 12V.
If the light bulb is dim while the starter is turning but flashes bright every once in a while you have a bad segment on your commutator.

You can leave this hooked up until you experience the problem, it will not hurt anything.

OK, Going up to the lake this week where, oddly enough, I hope my starter will fail so I can test it during a fault. Just to be sure, the test light described by Daveswaves is connected to the starter terminals as indicated by the arrows in the photo below, correct?

Thanks.

If it acts up again. Just put 12v directly to the starter. If it starts then you know it is the solenoid. That's what I did. Replaced the solenoid no problems ever scince. And yes they will work when they want. (faulty solenoids)

Same two terminals if I use jumper cables?

Same two terminals if I use jumper cables?

Yes
The test methods the guys have already posted here are accurate, and will help trouble shoot the problem. Arco Marine ( www.arcomarine.com/ ) also has a great trouble shooting chart (under the "Tech Tips" button) in their catalog on several electrical areas, one of which is the starter solenoid. (It also shows a way to check the solenoid for excessive resistance, which would also cause problems.) I have asked and received permission to post it here for everyone's benefit, here's the link;
www.arcomarine.com/xhtml/Tech%20Solenoid%20Circuts%20%26%20Testing.pdf

At last! I caught it at the dock. The light did not come on so it looks like I'm in the market for a solenoid. Where's a good place to shop for that? I've been able to find one here . It's about $70.00. Hopefully I can do better.

Thanks.

Great news! But if you
are not in a big hurry there are less expensive ones out there Do some shopping

I'll check when I get to work today Z-man, see if I can get you one cheaper. Wouldn't be O.E. Merc though, if that's an issue.....? If so, you might check with Joe at www.fergusonpoolemarine.com/

I got mine for my '63 1000 off ebay. Just searched for the oem part # and got REAL lucky! Inexpensive too from what I remember...

Another good possibility is Tim Calmes (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.). Shop around!

Frank

OE isn't essential but I do want it to fasten to the starter body like the original. I've got time. Thanks again to all of you helping out!

Sorry Z-man, I wasn't able to come up with one that mounts like the original.

Thanks just the same.

try taking it apart and cleaning it cant loose any thing.i have done it with some luck.you will have to drill out the rivets and replace with bolts.

Found a "new-old stock" OEM part at a local marine shop. Phoenix-metro is a big place, you can find almost anything here! I'm back on the water!

Thanks to everyone!