TOPIC: Paint vs. Gelcoat

Very enlightening Jamil, thank you for sharing this info. I've studied the subject here gathering opinions for future reference, it's good to gather as much knowledge as possible.

Holy crap...ill have to set some time aside to read this...

Cliff notes??

My Brain Hurts!

The first boat I saw that had a refreshed GelCoat finish was Del's - I think it was the Herters Rocket. It just looked right. Painted boats have too much gloss - the Gelcoat had just the right look.
But - when doing the Glass Craft, Mike Ellis applied GelCoat at his fiberglass shop. It was the best gelcoat job I could have hoped to get. It didn't look all that great.
When I did the G3 I used top end automotive paint - with clear coat - applied by a professional in a booth. Looked great for about 3 years. You've addressed this problem in previous posts.
So.....perhaps it's time to try a product actually designed for the purpose huh? :~)
I suspect Brian Lawson will be the first to agree - he's a staunch proponent of Britesides and a master of Tip 'n Roll !

Peter
With great appreciation for a well done piece
from Denver

A very good article , being a marine painter here in Australia for quite a few years, and having used the mentioned products , and others , it's always amazed me that folks always seem to want the option that needs more work for lesser results .
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on flocoat verse's paints for interiors , lot of people down here lean towards single pack paving (concrete) paints for soles , bulkheads and hull interiors .
The nicest looking flocoat job I've seen was done by the young apprentice , smooth as , looked great .
Never hardened up though , he forgot to add the catalyst! looked good though .

Cheers yochemin

Very good information.
But being a fiberglass guy i believe in gel coat.
Very few paints can be submerged in water. Yes there are a few but they are very expensive, and many can't be mixed to custom colors.
I have played around the the Dura tec prodects, mainly the Hi gloss clear additive. The data sheet on it says it is used as a additive to gel coats for molds, and it can be used to resurface FRP parts. I have used it for both. After spraying many parts with the product i have gotten it to a point where i can spray it out as good as most paint job comming out of body shops. But i have learned to thin it out more than the data sheet tells me to.
Remember most custom paint jobs that look really good, have been wet sanded and buffed.
I mainly use it for spraying water park platform decks. and have sprayed a few boats with it. So far i haven't had a problem with it working.
And if it needs a repair i can fix it or sand it and buff it. as long as you get enough gel coat on you can sand it with out a problem. Plus the surface prep doesn't need to be as exact as with most auto paint. as long as you get all of the pin holes filled in you will get a nice looking glossy job.
But then this is MHO. and i will never paint a boat with paints. Gel coat is chemicaly made to bond to polyester whether it is a polyester primer, resin or glass.

This is from the Dura tec web site

Use these Duratec® products to repair clear or pigmented gelcoated FRP parts:
Duratec Polyester Hi-Gloss Additive (904-001 Clear)
Duratec Thinner (39LAC-1)
The end result is a low porosity, smooth, high-gloss, hard surface that is similar in
appearance to the original gelcoat surface. Duratec Polyester Hi-Gloss Additive
will reduce subsurface porosity and orange peel, increase impact resistance, improve
gloss retention and elevate heat distortion temperatures.
Application Conditions
The surface should be clean, dry and free from oil, grease, wax or other contaminants.
Ambient temperature should be in excess of 60°F, 16°C to ensure a rapid
and complete cure. Time calculations are based on temperatures of 77°F, 25°C.
Surface and Product Preparation
Thoroughly sand the area to be repaired to a 120 or 180 grit finish.
Blend and mix completely equal parts of Duratec Polyester Hi-Gloss Additive and
the gelcoat required for the repair or overspray. Catalyze at 2 percent with mekP
catalyst (20 cc per quart). Thin 5-10 percent if necessary to a desired spray viscosity
with Duratec Thinner or mek solvent.
Application Procedures
Spray the entire surface to be repaired with a fine mist coat and wait 2 minutes for
the solvents to flash off. Follow with wet coats, overlapping the surrounding area
to ensure complete coverage. When re-spraying large areas, keep a wet edge as
with gelcoat spray techniques.
Hawkeye

godelescher wrote:

Spearzike,

This is rolled and tipped Awl-grip that required no wet sanding or buffing.

Thats BEAUTIFUL!!!

What do you mean when you say "tipped"?

You have to be kidding me! THAT paint was rolled on with a roller? What a great finish what was the process?

Godelescher,
That is a very good looking paint job. Nice job.
But how many of the back yard guys here could get that paint job DIY? I know that I personaly couldn't do it. Takes many years of experiance to beable to tip and roll a paint job to that quality.
But most here have sprayed some type of paint.

I'm not trying to call anyone out here. Just that there is alot of information on fiberglass and gel coats that many people don't know.
My background is: I own part of a fiberglass shop here in Denver with my brother. Between Him and I we have close to 30 years experiance , which we both learned from our Father, who was in the fiberglass field, starting in the 1960's.
We are a custom shop. No we don't work on boats. it is my hobby.
I try out a lot of new products on my boats for use in the shop for everyday production.
So again i hope to not offend anyone, i am just helping out on informing people on their choices when recoating a boat.

Godelescher,
No I didn't think that you were comming off as snarly. LOL
I just wanted to make sure that no one thought i was comming off snarly. I for one don't like the pi##ing matches that happen on these boards. doesn't help anyone become informed, and takes the fun out of the hobby.
and Yes i to will say do not spray Gel coat, or any paint for that matter with out the right PPE's My father is on oxygen, because back in the 1960's and 70's no one wore PPE's and he is a living example on why you should wear everything you can to protect yourself.

Well done Gentlemen! A fair and civil presentation from both sides. Gleaning information is SO much more pleasurable when the presentation is done with the respect you both have shown each other. THANK YOU!

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread, very informative !!

Hello godelescher; This is my first visit and post here in quite some time. I have been an avid collector of vintage boats and motors for the past 25 years. I am 60 years old and owned a full service boatyard for 20 years and running, building, and working on boats has been my life's work and passion for most of the past 40 years. In my career I have built and re-built many boats and done custom paint jobs and restoration work on multi million dollar yachts and little runabouts as well. I have read a couple of your posts and it is obvious to me that you are a professional and know what you are talking about and I want to commend you on taking the time to write and give such a complete accounting of your thoughts on paint vs Gelcoat. For the most part I agree with what you have said. I quit posting such things on this site many years ago because to truely give a good expanation of what, how, and why things are done in professional yacht refinishing and boat restoration work usually takes a lot of time and involves long postings like what you have done. Also there are always the insuing arguments and differing opinions that should be addressed and those too take time and effort to address. It is a shame more professionals like yourself do not share their knowledge with the hobbiests like you are doing. I hope your willingness to put yourself out there will be appreciated expecially by those who have restored one or two boats and think they are now experts. It is not my intention to upset or offend anyone just to make the point that you are taking your time to help and I hope some will take the time to listen. My hats off to you. Brian

As I've gone through my day this issue has popped up in my ADD riddled brain fairly often.
As said - I've gone a couple ways with restorations...but I haven't tried the Marine Paint approach. Jamil makes an excellent case for Marine Paint - Mike (Spearzike) Ellis makes good points for gelcoat.
Perhaps the best thing to come from this is an acknowledgement that there are, indeed, two ways to go - gelcoat and paint - and that properly done they both have merits and demerits.

There may be some who think that if you can't do gelcoat then you're not doing a proper job. Gelcoat is - perhaps - beyond the skills and equipment of the average person in their driveway. Knowing that if he or she chooses paint they aren't choosing an inferior path - but rather a solid path on which they can achieve a good durable result might cause that restoration to get finished.

I might be one of those people.

So thanks for this excellent discussion!

I'd also like to say that I hope this is just one of many such intelligent and informative discussions to be held here at the new FiberGlassics!

EDIT: Jamil...
Ok so if you have a fiberglass boat that you've removed most or all of the gelcoat on...you've done a cloth overlay. Now you're using Duratec high build primer to "work" the overlay and create a smooth surface. What's your pick - paint or gelcoat and why?

I mean I get paint when the project is spot repair or restoring a faded finish - but what about in the case of a total redo?

Peter
Good to see you Brian!
in Denver

Jamil; Well, when your right your right and your last answer to Peter is also spot on. Ive only read a couple of your posts so far but I have'nt seen anything I really disagree with at this point. As I said I have been working on and around boats for 40 years and it is easy for me to pick out the ones that are real professionals and have learned from years of experience and those that have learned from listening to their friends and reading manufactures claims. I thought for once someone should acknowledge this so perhaps the information you are sharing will be appreciated and not treated like just another so called "experts" opinion. I have spent half my life "fixing" things done to boats that were done the way friends told them to do it, as Im sure you have. Brian

Thanks Peter, nice to see you too since I don't see you on the G3 site much anymore. What ya workin on these days?? Fins I bet? yes, no? Im still very busy with the Florida Glasspar Club and having a great time with it. B.

I am highly looking forward to the next post from you.
If you have seen my boat, you know why.
I was not planning on ever painting away that patina but after the last oak tree incident I have changed my mind.

Great thread here. I've used everything from sparyed gelcoat, to Awl Grip (PhD in Chemistry required to apply) and have settled in on two products, both from Interlux, for nearly all my work; VC Performance Epoxy for white hulls, and Brightsides for topside work. I have boats done in Brightsides that are almost 10 years old now and still look beautiful. I use Interlux 95 urethane varnish for my wood projects, largely because it is compatible with Brightsides. I often will do an underlay of accent color, and then varnish right over that; e.g. Yellow Jacket decks. I work alone, and have developed techniques that work for me.

What I am looking for is the master color key of how to custom mix the rainbow of Brightside paints to get the funky 50's colors. I've custom mixed several colors for projects, the latest being the 1961 Power Cat 18DC. I mixed 2:1 of White to Yellow (like a school bus yellow...yikes!!) to yield a soft butter yellow that matches the original gelcoat color very nicely.

Thanks for sharing information. This is what this place is all about.

What a great thread. Gee, ya learn sumpin every darn day if yer not careful!

I don't know if I'll ever "do" another classic boat, but the next one would no doubt come out better than the first!

Frank

I think this is an excellent thread. Although this race has been run many times before. There is always merit in talking about it. I would like to weigh in not to disput anything but to give a DIY's point of veiw. I have done a few boats and experimented with sprayable paints and gelcoat. ( No experinces with brushable finishes). My handsdown favorite is gelcoat with only a few things I like about it over sprayable paints. The problem with sprayable paint and gel is the equipment you must have to do if you are a DIY's. Also the learning curve to achive the finish you want. There really is a learing curve to spraying anything. If you do not have someone that has some knowledge on spraying to help you. It is really tuff the fist couple times you give it a go. You need to know so may things. The right tip for the gun, air pressure, pot life, flash time, where to start spraying, coverage, overlap, coats, compatablity, how to remove a sag, and on. Books help a tremendes amount but experience is really the key. Oh and an expensive gun does not make you a painter.
Paint I have no problem with using sprayable paints to finish any boat I own. I feel paint holds up just fine. In the water and out. I do not feel the cost is a lot more than what a gelcoat job will cost. But that can depend on the cost level of paint you chose. Seventy five dollars a quart or two hundred. Plus your additives. What I don't like about sprayable paints is what I have for a spraying enviroment. I do not have enough room . So if I need a clean area to paint. I must make some type of booth or plastic off everything in the shop then vent it and light it . But it still seems I will get some dust bunny's, bugs or overspary that wants to settle back in the finish. So then I am wet sanding and buffing every thing anyway. It is a lot harder to wet sand and buff paint rather than gel as you do not have the thickness in paint that you have in gel. Much easier to sand thru paint or to let the buffer wrap over an edge and take the paint off. Learing curve.
Why I really like gel the best. Cost, prep, finish. Cost of a gallon of gel with UV block tinted is about sixty dollars a gallon then there is the MEKP and the High Gloss additive. I feel gel lets you miss just a TINY about of prep work. You shoot gell over eighty grit sanding. Make no mistake it is not a cure all for bad prep work. But gel must be put on at least eighteen mills thick. So you really have a high build. That is the Tiny bit of help that I feel I get. Now the High Gloss additive really helps to make the gel flow out. Thus you should have very little orange peel to sand out. Some don't sand and polish at all. I have never been that lucky. Also they now have on the market foam back sanding paper in grits up to three thousands. This paper fits a palm sander. You do not even have to wet sand but can dry sand with these. These paper cut's down on the finishing time a huge amount.
A few more things I like. I can never do my body work with out a couple of those $$$$$ pin holes showing up. When you are done spraying gel take an artist brush and just fill in the pin hole in with what is still in the qun. You will be sanding it flat anywnay.
I find that it is much easier for me to match and patch gel or to sand out a new scratch or nick.
It may be a lot of steps to complete a finish and may steps mean time. However I do not believe DIY's are really as concernd about the amount of time it takes to do the job. . More if they can afford to do it and will it be beautiful.
Again there is a learning cure to shooting gel. If you chose this way. Get a piece of plywood and practice practice.
I do a few boat shows a summer. In talking with people at the shows. The question alway comes up from the DIY's. Hey what should I finsh my boat with. I heard painted boats can't be left in the water. What kind of paint will stick to fiberglass? Or I heard gel coat is impossible to spray and even harder to sand.
Well I have never ever opened a can of Brightsides, Petti or Alw Grip. But I have seen some of the most beatiful paint jobs done by first timers you can amagin at shows. You may not beable to tell it was not done in a proffessional shop. Now also you may will see a finishes that talks to you from a distance. I have read many times on this board where Brian has stepped in and helped people to do a tip and roll job. From my talking at the shows when you are talking about a bad looking job. It almost always comes to light that they DID NOT FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS. Tempeture, sanding, cleaness, time between coats, all will make a diffence.
If there are only three things I can tell a DIY's to help. They would be. Use the right products with each other. If you do body work learn how to use Guide Coat. ( Quick expantion. It is a black spray can paint the you dust over your body work like if you peppered it. Then when you sand the next time you will see your high and low spots because it takes off the pepper on the high and shows the low.)
Also buy a quart of Wax and Grease remover. When you think you are reay to paint. Take a paper towel and wet it good in the Wax and grease remover now wipe down a section that you are qoing to paint. Make it wet. Step back and look into the light. Now you will see what it looks like as if you had put a shinny finish on her. If it looks really good well then suck it up and get to work put some color on.
I sure wish we had spell check.

D

This is a great thread. A lot of excellant information, tips, and how to's. My advice to a DIY trying to decide on paint or gel coat is to buy as many classic boats as you can find and then practice!

I must of missed what 'TIPPING'is.