TOPIC: General floor and stringer restore questions.

I'm replacing the floor to my MFG Chevron here:

www.fiberglassics.com/glassic-forums/home/member-projects/1968-mfg-chevron-new-sole#89164

I've post questions before and i know it needs to be supported as i tear out the floor and stringers.

While i'm tearing out the floor and stringers can i stand on the hull? Should i try to put temporary sister boards beside the stringers on one side as i do the other and lay plywood on top for a place to sit?

The stringers should be one piece from bow to transom, correct? Or would it be OK to do the bulkheads in a solid piece and run the stringers between them?

I was reading a G3 thread about stringers. I'm thinking of going with a clear fir, soaked in thinned resin and covered in glass. Sound good?

Whats the best tool and/or technique to use to trim out the fiberglass tape that was used around the stringers and floor?

Thanks!!!

dan

Dan:

I read your previous post. Looks like nobody will talk to you! Must be your deodorant. Anyway...

All your concerns leave a lot of ground to cover:

Before you do anything, take all your measurements...ALL of them that have anything whatsoever to do with the shape of the hull, height of the floor, etc. Take LOTS of photos.

Your boat is of a design that does not lend itself to replacing the decking with the top of the boat in place. I would separate the two halves and work on the completely exposed hull.

Second, only use marine plywood, never anything less. Do not listen to the people who suggest far inferior plywood coated with some miracle product.

Your new stringers will need to be positioned exactly level with the edges at the chines. This takes time but is absolutely necessary for a level and flat floor...and it must be done without your weight on the hull.

You need full length stringers of white oak or mahogany and they will need to be held by temporary or permanent "dead men" between them because you need to bed those full length stringers in copious 3M 5200 so that you get "squoze" from all sides. Let it set-up for about 5 days before putting any weight on it. 5200 needs moisture to set up quickly and properly. A little water in the bilge will help.

Check the leveling of the final stringer installation. If not right on the money, do what it takes to fix them...shave a little here, add a little there. Important: add some solid blocks of wood where the seats will mount. You can't screw seats to thin plywood. Now...completely coat the new stringers with CPES...two coats. If you're going to add foam floatation, now is the time to do it. Use the 2lb density urethane foam, over fill and then shave level with the framing members. (US Composites)

Use 3/8" marine plywood...Okoume is good stuff and fairly cheap.
(Al Jernigan - World Panel Products) Test fit the plywood decking pieces and when you have them right, double-coat the undersides with CPES. Afterward, bed them to the stringers, any other structural members and all edges with 5200, fasten with stainless steel 1-5/8" decking screws. (Ace Hardware)

Now...Seal all the top edges with 5200. After that, seal the surface of the plywood with CPES. After that's done, fiberglass the whole nine yards to a point about 4" up the sides of the hull.

You're done. Time for carpet. (Aqua Turf, Carla Curtis - Albright's Supply) Use Henry indoor/outdoor glue. (Ace Hardware)

Lastly, no matter what, do not tell your wife how much all this stuff costs. You'll have enough to deal with without feminine drama.

Jan Hadley

Thanks for all the pointers. It'll take a while to digest!

If she wants new furniture, i get new flooring! (roses help a lot too...)

As for measuring stuff without putting your weight on it how do you do that? a scaffolding? maybe some mission impossible style ropes?!?!

Thanks again!

dan

Oh, deodorant! that's what I’ve been forgetting!

We generally put 2x8's across the boat to work from but if you're going to separate the two halves, the hull will no longer support the weight. Scaffolding of some sort will be required...fairly easy to make with 2x4's and plenty of cross braces. Span the boat twice side to side and then add two moveable boards running fore and aft. That ought to give you a stable working platform. Keep the height as low as possible. Get some help...but not your wife. Women don't "get it." They say stupid things and hand you the wrong tools.

Take two Aleve tablets before you go to bed. Your back will be killing you. If you manage to fall into the boat, cut through the bottom of the hull or fall victim to any other distructive or painful development, take photos and post them here. We like to be reminded that we're not the only ones who do stupid things. Good luck.

Dan, i guess your in the same boat as the rest of us.....do you feel that sinking feeling? Jan is absolutely hilarious, and even more a skilled craftsman with enough on hand info to overload simple circuitry like mine! I used southern yellow pine on stringers previously coated in thin epoxy, should last years, and its cheaper than white oak or mahogany. You can put the separated hull on a pile of bean bags for support, thats my attempt at humor.
It sounds worse than it is, just takes more time than you could want it to, as a good thing normally does! I am more likely to hunt for information here than i am to give it, there are many ways to skin a cat. Nautilus to me seems to be one of if not the top high end builder here, so i believe his words golden. Just remember to enjoy the experience and hide as many costs as you can from the misses!!! Thanks to the pro's, Brian

Well i'm screwed. My Mrs. is also my bookkeeper!

I ask a lot of questions here too. I take the advice, mix it with my experiences, and usually come out with something workable.

This project reminds me of doing the floors in the attic and mud room of our old house. It was built in 1880 and NOTING was level or plumb anymore.

The mudroom had been the back porch at some point. They built it in and left the slope in the floor! And the old well was under the floorboards with a cement cap!

After we were done with it it was level and solid.

The attic was similar. Couldn't rip up everything whitout the second floor ceiling falling in! and all the tight spaces under the eaves are similar to the area under the deck.

Well, either way this'll be fun.

Wish i had some of the joists from that house. They were all 123 year old chestnut.

Well thats where your experience kicks in, use what you know and roll with it! If your not building this boat for anybody but yourself than you can take any "short cut" you wish with safety in mind of course. Cost cutting measure's can be made as long as there well thought out. I dont build anything show quality, but nothing that i build is a safety hazard to any partys involved. So my generic advice is to build your vessel with safety, than cost in mind, and enjoy! Even the Titanic was unsinkable, unfortunate ending.
You can stand in a stripped hull, tread lightly. What do you weigh? I'm 165lbs. and stripped two hulls and re did stringers and transom while boat"s were on trailers with no obvious deformation. Yes mabey i lucked out, and had solid platforms to work off of, just sharing my own personnel experience so far. I think my work to date has turned out great! Research here is key though, many different ways to end up on the water enjoying the sun and wave's.
As always i am no pro just one of the fellas here on a tight boat budget trying to save a dollar or two and also do the job correctly. Its a fine line, LOL, Thanks. Brian

Here's my 2¢ on the subject of Decks, Stringers and Transoms for these old boats. Marine Plywood is THE BEST but... (Doncha just hate those BUTS!!!!) If you're working for yourself and NOT for the other fella then I think it's totally fine to save a few bucks when and where you can. All and I do mean ALL exterior Grade Plywood is Glued up with the same Water Resistant glue that's used in the Marine Grade stuff. The difference is in the Wood Plys, Quality of those plys and in some cases the number of plys used. The Aruaco brand of plywood is a 7ply exterior grade that is almost VOID Free in the plys. I compares very well to MG plywood and Cost almost 2/3 less. 4x8 ft sheet in most markets is less than $50 bucks. My next point. Again My opinion. Stringers do NOT have to be One Piece and most certainly to not have to be of any certain type of wood. Heck they've been made from a lot of things including Cardboard!!!! I recommend using the same Aruaco Plywood and using staggered laminations to acheive the lengths needed for your stringers. If you glue and screw them together they will in fact be stronger than if you use dimensional lumber. CPES is not needed, in fact, it's a waste of time and money. I have a good friend that's been in the Resin business for over 40 years and the research on the "Rot Doctor" product which is CPES says that by chemically thinning the properties of epoxy you do nothing but weaken it. Besides preventing wood rot is all about encapsulation. If the wood is coated totally and no cracks occur it doesn't matter if the resin has penetrated the wood or not. You'll be applying approximately 1/8" of resin and glass to most surfaces of your boat. If done' properly with no bubbles or other impurities using normal resin and processes will be just fine. As far as bedding your stringers, I recommend using thickened Resin (Polyester Resin, Cabosil and 1/4" chopped milled fibers (1/4 cup per quart of resin) mixed to the consistency of creamy peanut butter) Some will talk about Hard Spots in the hull etc. however this subject only comes into play for larger boats of 20' of bigger. I have some supporting documentation/research if you want to get deep into that subject. The Peanut Butter mix while it appears to be HARD is still flexible enuf not to cause Crazing of the hull or gelcoat so it's not going to be an issue. Using 5200 could cause and issue in that if you get messy with it, and don't get it cleaned up from the hull it could cause adhesion issues with any other glass work you might do later in that area and It's quite pricey compared to Poly resin. These are ALL my opinions based on my DIY experiences over the years of messin with old boats needin fixed. They've worked for me with great results and no problems. Decades of use and still going strong. Bottom line is this. It's all about care and Maintenance. Even shoddy workmanship will last a long time if you care and maintain it well. I've worked on 40 year old boats that when I tore them open I wondered how in the heck the factory got by doing such terrible work but.. the boat still floated and did what it was supposed to do cuz the owner took good care of it.

Like I said it's only my 2¢ and worth what you paid for it!!! I'm not a PRO and I DON'T repair boats for Profit!

Thanks for the 2cents flamingo! I like your cost effective ways of re doing a boat. I did price out 3m 5200 it is a bit pricey, i have never used it. I have bedded my stringers similarly to your way, except i have used epoxy versus poly. I do seal all my materials in epoxy, havent even researched CPES yet unsure what it is. I also agree with you on the plywood topic, i did alot of research on that and ended up using aruaco on one boat and would use it again and will! I did like the price compared to some of the others I looked into.
I used pl premium and deck grade screws to fasten my deck to the stringers, and covered with the 6 oz. bi axial and epoxy just one layer, did a perimeter 6" floor to wall first and wrapped the 6 oz. over that. I cut every cost i could without taking any short cuts as the boat is to be used and not break the bank. I am doing another boat now, have already done the stringers with 8 layers of the 6 oz. on to foam and floors next. Any insight or corrections greatly appreciated! Thanks guys, Brian

I'll be the first to admit that boat restoration can be done cheaper than the way I do it. I always use the best material available, regardless of the cost...to me or to a client. The labor is all the same, regardless of the material used and is a much larger expense percentage-wise. The few hundred dollars I could save with inferior material is almost inconsequential compared to the total cost of restoration. I never want to put myself in a position of looking at a finished project and thinking about what I should have used instead of what I did use in order to cut costs.

"I'm easy to please. I'm always satisfied with the best." - Oscar Wilde

"Support mental health or I'll kill you." - Anonymous‎

That's great. Thanks for the 2 cents. Its good to have other opinions.

If I do foam is there anything I need to account for moisture that get under the floor?

If you do it right, there should be no moisture beneath the floor other than a small amount of condensation. The mistake many guys make is cutting a hole to "let water out," which, in actuality, is a hole to let water in.

Some of the older boats have bilges with Hull drains, some don't. You can make a draining bilge if your's does not have one, or you can decide to just have a bilge to drain the deck and have a totally enclosed hull. It's up to you. If you decide to have a draining bilge then this creates issues with your stringer design and if you decide to use expanding foam in your hull you need to determine a way to attempt to allow water to get back to the draining bilge. This can be problematic and from what I've seen and heard there's really no good way to accomplish this. Most draining bilges are for boats that don't have foam.

Hey Dan,

Before you go buy that clear fir. If your MFG is a 68 it should have glass stringers with closed cell foam in every other stringer See Cap'n Billy-bob's thread on the MFG Sea Cruiser in the MFG forum. I have been under the weather or I would have responded to your first inquiry. Also check out this link.
www.fiberglassics.com/wiki/images/3/3e/Mfgb68002.jpg
Let me hear before you come back down to the OBX. Sandy and I just might have to join you out there in the water.

Float happy

Al

morris wrote:

Hey Dan,

Before you go buy that clear fir. If your MFG is a 68 it should have glass stringers with closed cell foam in every other stringer See Cap'n Billy-bob's thread on the MFG Sea Cruiser in the MFG forum. I have been under the weather or I would have responded to your first inquiry. Also check out this link.
www.fiberglassics.com/wiki/images/3/3e/Mfgb68002.jpg
Let me hear before you come back down to the OBX. Sandy and I just might have to join you out there in the water.

Float happy

Al

This is what i found when i started tearing into her:

I was told there were never any major repairs, but that coulda been a lie. But those are plywood stringers and plywood floor. It is a 68 mfg Chevron, 17 ft.

Thanks! we might be down again this July.

Cheers,

dan

PS. that black piece of metal was from me. I jammed that in there this summer when i noticed the steps going through the floor!

MyFlamingo wrote:

Some of the older boats have bilges with Hull drains, some don't. You can make a draining bilge if your's does not have one, or you can decide to just have a bilge to drain the deck and have a totally enclosed hull. It's up to you. Most draining bilges are for boats that don't have foam.

This one has a bilge for the deck area AND a drain for the under floor area.

If i seal in the under floor area i would leave the deck bilge in place and recreate the stringers similar to how they are.

Nautilus wrote:

If you do it right, there should be no moisture beneath the floor other than a small amount of condensation. The mistake many guys make is cutting a hole to "let water out," which, in actuality, is a hole to let water in.

So if i foam her, the current hole in the transom to let water out of the under floor area can be closed?

But, i would keep the deck bilge area hole, and plug it during use.

Dan,

That's not Fiberglass! WOW! So much for truth in advertising. I have done several wood stringer boats. A lot depends on whether you have to separate the deck and gunwales from the hull to do the whole floor. Can you post a shot up thru the boat from behind the transom. Some open bow boats you have to and a few you don't.

Al

morris wrote:

Hey Dan,

www.fiberglassics.com/wiki/images/3/3e/Mfgb68002.jpg

Al

I looked at the pic in that link. I do not remember seeing any evidence of fiberglass like that being removed. But i was not looking for it.

Next time i'm on her i'll look more closely for signs of it being removed.

Dan I will be back out here about 7pm tonight if you can I will meet you in the chat room and we can talk about how you may want to go it is still all good as you are no rookie.

Just got back on. Have a look at the pics in the link in the first post.

Well here it isis
www.fiberglassics.com/glassic-forums/home/member-projects/1968-mfg-chevron-new-sole#89164

You can see some pics in there.

Dan, Can you access the chat?

Well in regards to saving money wisely being a regret down the road i will let ya know when im rich and retired! Untill then, with young kids and all life has in store i can honestly build a great vessel and save a few bucks and enjoy life no regrets and yeah all in one sentence! Every body has their own way at life, and boating is no different. So i guess we can all agree to disagree and still mabey respect one and anothers opinion/ facts. I have no fear of any boat i redo from the hull up ever sinking or falling apart due to my inability or lack of using inferior materials. I do honestly appreciate all inputs and experience's but regret is bigger to me than any boat! just my 2 cents

Been there and done that. There was a time when I couldn't afford the gas to even go look at boats!

My advice needs to be taken for what it's worth...twice what you pay for it. I only make suggestions. As a professional restorer, I have to be able to send boats out the door with no regrets or hesitation and of course, the customer is paying for the material. It may be his boat but it's my reputation.

By all means, do your own thing and make no apologies. Personally, I like to drive my boat while eating shrimp and drinking beer...naked. The whole point of vintage boating is to have fun.

Nautilus wrote:

Been there and done that. There was a time when I couldn't afford the gas to even go look at boats!

My advice needs to be taken for what it's worth...twice what you pay for it. I only make suggestions. As a professional restorer, I have to be able to send boats out the door with no regrets or hesitation and of course, the customer is paying for the material. It may be his boat but it's my reputation.

By all means, do your own thing and make no apologies. Personally, I like to drive my boat while eating shrimp and drinking beer...naked. The whole point of vintage boating is to have fun.

Without a doubt, your best post ever Jan!

Dan, Have you looked at your transom yet? I am curious to learn what you have found out.

Self proclaimed professional! Signing out thanks for all the support I got the depressed chicken on the grill, with a beer and yep i'm naked.

I wanted input on how to do it and that's what I got. From the professional that does it for a living to shade tree mechanic.

Right now I've been swamped at work and when I'm not I'm looking into getting this powercat.

This weekend I hope to get to the tranome and do some exploratory surgery.

So here it is. I got an oscillating tool. I was playing with that and getting a feel for it.

After measuring i wrapped 2 large ratchet strap around the not to help it stay still.

I tapped around the transom with a rubber mallet just now and don't hear anything I think sound like rot and the transom is straight. But only getting into it will tell.