TOPIC: Wrong year, classic liberties - why do we do it?

I've always had a nagging topic in my head and today, I thought I'd bring it up to see what everyone else thinks. Keep in mind, this isn't to cast a negative light on anyone's work. Please, keep that in mind.

Here goes.

Often times I'll see a beautiful restoration here and on other sites. Be it one of the finned, head-lit wonders that some go gaga over, or just a wacked out beauty, there's always something that gets me.

Say you have a lonestar meteor. They seem to be the epitome of classic glass in some circles. What I don't get is the idea that they came on a Tee Nee trailer with the teardrop fenders. I mean, has anyone seen a factory image or original family photo that shows it? Being a meteor owner, it seems that somehow there's an unwritten code that you MUST have this trailer & fenders to make it right. (I know there isn't really) I spent years looking for the right stuff to make mine come across this way... and the truth is: They look super on them! They seem to compliment each other and I totally agree that it should be this way... but to a purist, (which I'm not) it wouldn't be original at all.

Another example would be some of the other fabulous boats I've seen. The liberty we take when atttempting that classic look often takes us to great lengths to get that "certain bow light." (like spending 200 bucks on just a light) Let's use those super classic Atwood lights that look like spaceships for instance. I see them put on lots of boats from the 50's...yet these star trek lights themselves weren't even made in the 50's. They were early 60's. (and they didn't look cool on the boats they came on either)

Why would anyone put one on their boat knowing that someone here could plug it as being not original? Why would one restore a super classic to original colors then blow it by putting the wrong hardware on it?

Don't get me wrong, I do it too and maybe I'm answering my own question but I'm curious to see what others have to say. Is it just adding that "classic factor" that makes us do it, or is there more to the story?

Let's take a quick gander at the engines & colors now. In some attempts, I've seen a true classic artistically murdered because the wrong motor was used or because they used some color of paint that, although screams 50's, just ruined the whole thing. It's like putting baggy overalls on a pinup model. To me, if it's got curves, the motor should have curves to match. (well, depending on the photo, overalls might look just fine on a pinup to some.. but that's a different topic)

Ever see Kev"fins" meteor in person? It's a 1956 Meteor, it's Cadillac Mint Pink and has the largest motor of the day on it. A mark75. If you put it in the water, it'd probably sink... but it's amazing to look at. (Kevin, we all love you, this is just fun to write)

I'm not complaining about it because it's all cool as shit to see. Let's keep in mind that there's a certain thing about us glassheads and the classic fiberglass builders of the day... in that, we're not total purists. They took liberties and so do we. If we were purists, we'd be a whole different entity... but there's websites for that.

Looking forward to any response. This should be fun. If I have my facts, er...opinions wrong, please help me out here.

Please, this is a discussion, not a pissin contest.

Kelly

It's sometimes hard to know what is " stock " I was told when we were restoring the Thunderhawk that it depended on which factory it was made in, as each accessorized with different decals ect. I know we struggled with putting a floor in the boat as it wasn't original, the same for the color, yellow wasn't an option with this boat. In the end we did what we thought would look good, and improved on the original. I do agree a period motor adds the finishing touch though...

I do the same thing, however when I restore a boat I personalize it to my tastes, like I would have if I were the original buyer, Im not doing this for a museum or to be judged, Im doing this to make me happy

There are millions of Harleys, but most are unique, the first thing a guy does when he buys his bike new or used is to personalize it, I think its the way we show our passions for the hobby
I think it was this way when the boats were first purchased & it will be this way no matter how many times they get a makeover, its personalization, each to his own, which is the beauty of it all, otherwise it would be boring, "you see one youve seen them all"

I will probably get flamed for saying this, but my take on a classic might be a bit different. I love the lines and curves of many glassics. There is something almost magical in some of the designs. I can almost see in my mind, the guys working in a smelly poorly lit factory popping these things from the mold.
I imagine they never knew what they were actually making, historically speaking of course.

Now as far as my tastes are concerned, I own a skagit 20 express. Kelly knows my whacky ideas somedays. I gave Kelly a fair chunk of original hardware from it because I simply didn't want it. For example, the lifting arms on the cabin hatch. I prefer gas charged lifts. The interior original light? Same thing. I prefer LED or fluorescent. The old seats are history, the toilet and sink are gone, and a pile of other things. It doesn't bother me at all since my goal is an original paint scheme, but utilizing modern more fishing capable layout.

Now, many will cringe at what I have said and that's ok. We all march to a different drum. So what will people say when I tell them that I am seriously thinking of adding a small block 350 chevy inboard with a Berkeley jet pump? I suppose it doesn't really matter, since she will be unique, and truly mine in whatever details I choose. That's the beauty of this hobby. You can make it whatever you wish to make it.

There are some really beautiful boats out there, many true to the history their creators intended. There are however MANY others modified to what their current creators wanted. Individuality is good.

I like the Harley argument. I don't see why one can't customize there boat to fit there taste. I think the age old argument of the purest against the resto-custom will always be one that's there as the classics get older and harder to find. I can't see ANY ONE! cutting up a Auburn, Cord, or Duesenberg to make a street rod. But it's that persons car and personal property he has the right to do what he will with it. I would try to convince him not to or purchase it to save it, however. It's the same with these boats.

We all remember when there was a VW on every corner and driveway. No-one ever blinked a eye at cutting one up into a Baja bug. Today, there are people that would use the police power of the state if they could to tell you what you can and cant do to your 1954 oval VW window property.

It's subjective and a matter of opinion.
I believe there are some boats you don't customize and this my personal opinion It's driven by rarity and beauty in my case.

But it's again, What I think is rare and off limits may be a easy candidate for a custom job. I think this can never be put in one camp or the other.
Heather...

Hi,
This is a great topic, been thinking along the same lines myself lately. I have a strong background in cars & trucks, original, racing, restoring, customs and shows and can draw many parallels with boating.

In my early days with car shows I saw many conflicts, mainly resulting from judging an original and a custom by the same standards in the same class. The customs were more popular with the crowd, yet the originals owners had been doing shows longer and organized rules for judging. At one show they parked an original Model T next to a wild custom T-Bucket. The original T owner blew a gasket calling the custom a clown car from the circus and insulting the owner. The custom guy took it for awhile thinking it was just ribbing. After awhile it was clearly not friendly ribbing and the custom guy started in with your T belongs in a museum cuz on the road it’s just a speed bump. Surprised me as I knew the custom guy and he had an original T at home he was very proud of. Things elevated to pushing and shoving, the custom was moved to the other side of the arena.

Most got along respecting the others choice and looked at quality & originality of work presented. A predigest is just fear and can wind people up, doing things they normally would not. With the passion and pride that come with a hobby a little fear can get ugly quick. Promoters of the shows knew the customs brought in a much bigger crowd. Rather than choosing one or the other they made room for both. New classes and rules for judging made both sides happier. I’d like to see this with boat shows, would bring a bigger crowd.

I judged at a few shows, once I was assigned the low riders class. Not my beach but I had no problem with it, I understand a gearheads passion. There are a few judges that allow a personal bias affect their scoring. I’ve seen a couple award presentations get heated.

I would not tune in same bat time if Batman drove a yellow snow color Lincoln towing an avocado green color Glastron. Where would James Bond be without Q. Childhood would not have been near as much without Barris custom models to build, Car-Toon comics, Ratfink t-shirts and stickers. Today there are still well known customizers like Foose to set the new level.

When I take on a project the balance of 3 categories will determine the outcome, wants, needs and budget. My current project I would class as a “Resto-Mod”, restored & modified, not original yet not a wild custom. When I take on a project that will be presented as original and everything is revealed & documented. If I’m doing it for myself I will not repeat mistakes & sloppy/cheap work done at the factory. Lines have not really been drawn as to what is accepted as “original”. With boats would it be how it arrived at the dealer or with what the dealer may have added to go on the lot or what the buyer had added. How many people with a great boat get left out over lack of paperwork? There are no build sheets or number codes, most common ways to verify cars info, rarely even a serial number on these old boats. Is catsup on ice cream a reproduction of a strawberry Sunday? This is George Washington’s original hatchet…but we had to replace the head and handle due to wear and corrosion.

We all look at others boats and can find something we would “do different”. Hell the boat I’m doing now I see things I would “do different”, but have to balance that wants, needs and budget thing. When it’s done I’ll be very happy with the boat…forget the would have could have’s…accept the boat for what it is and enjoy!

We would love to travel and do some boat shows this summer while the boats fresh, it will be a daily driver. The biggest thing stopping me is the thought of a snobby judge scoring my work equal to dirt. In time things change but I still have to accept, their game their rules. I tried to enter a 25+ year old fiberglass boat in an Antique and Classic boat show about 10 years ago, was politely told they don’t accept plastic.

Maybe the next step will come here. There are enough voices here to organize and set the standard for classing, scoring and judging these old fiberglass boats. We’re all diplomats for the hobby…lets make more people welcome and it will grow…sorry for the long read...just my 2 cents…CAT*FIN*k

Well said!

Interesting topic that's for sure. And I'm sure there are going to be lots of different opinions and angles which is always good. I myself like to keep most classics classic, but with my own personal mods that are usually never realized by the average onlooker. They can tell the boat is 50's or 60's or 70's, but don't notice anything that may be out of the correct era for that particular boat.

When I first look at a boat the first thing I consider is what I think it needs to be just a little more pleasing on the eye. (My eye, not everyone elses) That may be a sleeker windshield, a different engine choice, a different color scheme, etc. Usually one of the first things I will switch is going to a single cable steering system instead of the original cable and pully setups. Sometimes I'll even cut down something a large raised area where the bow light was supposed to mount in order to streamline the nose a bit. I am always tossing out big bulky bow lights to make way for smaller, sleeker ones, but I always keep them in the general time period as the boat. I don't mind running a cd player in the dash or going from a big old 15" steering wheel to a smaller stainless spoke wheel if it works well with my vision of what the boat should look like.

As far as engines go, I am pretty open to running any setup, but some boats just look better with certain engines. I love Chrysler engines, but they don't look right on most of our old glassics because they are too square. Right now I have a very early 70's white Chrysler 35 on my '58 Lonestar Malibu lummie. It's way out of date for the boat, and a little squarish, but I think it still looks good on it because this particular boat has squred edges on the fins and sides. My preference would be a '58 Johnson Super Sea Horse 35, but I don't have one yet so the Chrysler will do fine for now.

I think the main thing to do is build what you want, customized or original, tasteful or tacky. I mean after all, you are the only one that has to live with it every day so make sure it's the way you want it. That's the way I have always thought whether it be boats or hot rods. I just wanna have fun!

Great topic: as in anything it will always be up for debate, I'm so new to all this and have been having a hard time with the direction you are all talking about here. I've boated long enough to know that accidents happen on the water and at the dock, as I want to use this boat I'm restoring / customizing? Once again money may be the deciding factor in my choice. Still hopefully when done I'll be the one that is happy with the outcome. for those that aren't I'll apologize now.

It should be noted that many boat manufacturers did not rig their boats at the factory. They were sent out to dealerships bare bones. The dealer then installed hardware, navigation lights, steering and of course outboard motor and trailer. So, whatever brand of hardware a particular dealer carried was what was installed on his boats. Every dealer could have used different hardware.

As late as 1960 the Sea Coaster model from Thompson Bros. Boat Mfg. Co. did not come standard with any hardware, navigation lights, steering wheel or even a windshield frame. All of this could be ordered as accessories from the factory by the dealer (boats were sold to dealers, not Joe Public). However, more often than not, the dealer purchased the boat with no accesories and once it was on his floor, he installed his own brand of hardware.

In a classic boat display today, you can see two Sea Caoster's side by side and each one has different type of lights and cleats and chocks. One may have a wooden framed windshield that was ordered from the factory the other may have a wrap around plexiglass windshield that the dealer installed. Is one more "original" than the other? No.

So the question is, what is factory original?

This precise issue has come up at judged classic boat shows. The judges are quick to say, hey, that hardware isn't factory original, so you get knocked off so and so points. Well, this is one of the reasons I do NOT like judged shows.

Even a boat builder that did factory install steering wheel, hardware and lights could switch in the middle of a production run if they ran out of stock. They'd plop something else on that boat to get it out the door. They would not wait 'til new stock arrived. Making 5,000 boats in a year you couldn't shut down the assembly line to wait for the "correct" cleat. Get 'er out the door with whatever you have on hand.

Many boat builders also switched hardware brands regularily. They'd go with whatever was the best deal for that season.

Andreas

Here is an analogy. In a previous life, I taught swing dancing. I have taken classes with the top people in the world and have danced with some rather interesting people. Within that community, there are some who want to preserve the original dance as it was done in the 30s and 40s, then others who that the basic moves and add modern twists to them. There were (and probably still are) some conflicts between the two, but most people realize that both are important and have their place; they just learn to peacefully coexist.

So it should be with the purists and those who set the boat up as they want to use it. A restoration or an original boat are preserving history. We all love to see these boats as they were the year they were built. A rebuild or modification sets the boat to the owner's personality. I don't know anyone who would rather see a boat chopped up in a dumpster than have someone rebuild and modify it and put it back in the water. When each learns to peacefully coexist, we'll all be better off.

I own one of each and am very happy with both of them and see no conflict. each one has its purpose

I think most everybody here learned that I feel that peacefully co-existing with each other is the most productive attitude to keep our love of the Glassics alive while I was trying to referee a recent pi**ing contest. (How to kill a something-or-other.) I was also very proud of 99% of the people who jumped in and tried to express this same attitude. Different opinions is what keeps life interesting, and the ability to discuss and explore both sides of the issue without attacking your adversary on the subject being debated is what sets us apart from lower life forms. I have immense respect for quality craftsmanship, in whatever form it is presented.

I must admit that I was momentarily taken aback by the comment posted above about

towing an avocado green color Glastron

. But I took a break, went back and read some of the advise given by wise members in the p'sn contest mentioned above, and decided it probably wasn't worth getting upset over. Spent most of the afternoon working on my GLASTRON. Have a great evening, everbody. Much love to all.

This same argument is hashed and rehashed in the classic motorcycle arena. Some guys spend 10 or more years rebuilding a classic British bike to 'factory' new. Then we find out that the factory didn't even stick to the parameters used to rebuild the bike 'original'. Then to many peoples disdain, he sticks it on a trailer and fills his trophy room with what 'Mr Miagi' of 'Karate Kid' fame called "prastic metal trophies".

If thats what 'floats yer boat' go for it. I like it when the old stuff gets out there and shares the road or water with the new stuff and gets more attention. I don't care if it is strictly original or customized to the owners taste. I DO care if it never gets used.

Then there's the guys who are horrified and offended if you DON'T do a complete original restoration. I built the bike in the pic below and it got a lot of attention from the custom bike crowd, but you wouldn't believe the purists who accused me of 'chopping' a classic.

I got it as a bare frame and motor without swingarm, fork, fenders, tank or ANYTHING...it was NOT chopped, it was in a mud puddle in Ohio waiting for the scrap metal man to take it away.



Point is, anything we do to keep old iron or 'glass from the landfill is alright by me.

Bernie

Funny you should ask! I was real apprehensive about joining this forum because I'm not a purist. I admire those that are, however, I don't have the skills or the money to completely restore my boat to it's original specs. I got my Dorsett because I loved her lines and I knew she would be perfect for fishing and swimming in our local lakes. Also, the small size of the boat made it easy to trailer and handle. I'm also a bit nostalgic and I would rather own an older vehicle/boat that has been restored, than a brand new one. The new stuff really bores the hell out of me. With ny boat, I made some modifications that suited my needs and made the boat safer. For example, I raised the transom 2 inches and I shortened the splashwell to give me more deck space for fishing. I had to "wing it" with the interior. I added 2 swivel seats and replaced the floor, while adding new carpet. It's almost done and the few times I've used it, people constantly compliment me on it. From what I've seen, most people on this site are tolerant of people who have to stray from the original specs. I hope it stays that way. I know I saved this old boat from the scrapyard and, with proper maintenance, my grandchildren will be using her.

Without rambling too much, I agree with co-existance. While I appreciate the perfection that is rewarded with trophies at shows, from the research, to locating parts, to execution; I enjoy seeing 'interpretations' of glassics, too.

In every old car I've worked on I've taken liberties. I've never owned, [and prolly never will own] any high dollar muscle car, which deserve correct restorations, Imo, [but still gotta get'em off the trailer and driven], but I don't have a problem with modifying [or restifying, resto-mod, etc] a 'garden variety' platform to make it what I want.

Above all, I think the only point to owning a classic boat, [or car, or mobile, or bike] should be for enjoyment -- not profit.
If enjoyment is trophy rewards, good for you, but for me, its a day on the water, and thumbs up from passersby... the instant conversations of "I remember when..." and comraderie with like minded folks.

when we got the sunray ,the interior was shot,we couldnt use much especially the seats,so we bought new ones and extra vinyl to match them,so the whole interior is going to be new,we found new seats that were teal in color ,trying to match as close as we could to the old.
next its getting a matching metalfalke teal and white paint job,i know it wasnt meatalflake before but its what we want.
the chrome bow light was bad ,but i lucked into a bowlight exactly the same but in great condition on ebay,also a chrome flagstaff,the engine is the origianal motor,a 63 evinrude 75 hp,it needs painted also,the trailer is also original to the boat,its a 64 little dude ,it too will be painted to match,
dont get me wrong i love pure original boats i just cant afford it,but im trying to get all the original parts and reupholster the interior the same ,just a differnt color teal with a console to keep papers /regestration among other things in it.
ive always done things kinda custom,like painting wolves on my motorcycle ,that looked like my black and white pet wolves.
heck just look at my 04 dodge ram 2500,its not a classic,but i still did it my way,some people love it some hate it and thats ok with me,as long as i like it,john sorry for the double pics www.fiberglassics.com/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/images/sunray_seat_brackets_2_005.jpg [/img]

This is an interesting thread indeed! And a strong correlation between boats and cars. What Heather said is true, it's unimaginable to think of someone chopping up or modifying an Auburn, Cord or Duesenberg - today. But remember how cars were done back then. You'd go to the annual Auto Show and visit the manufacturer of choice. Then you'd look through a selection of coach builders and pick your body. At that time you could also make any alterations you desired, providing you had the resources. Sounds like the same was similar with our boats back then. A marina or dealer could order bare hulls and outfit them as they or the customer saw fit. And add this to the mix - as cars, and probably boats, were built, improvements were done on the fly. Chassis 123456 could have been built with x parts and chassis 123457 could have had very different parts. And yet one more thing to consider...at some point ALL these vehicles - cars, boats, bikes - became nothing more than old used worn out clunkers nobody wanted. At that point anything was game. And to that point, check out this eBay auction:

A-rare-in-period-custom-Jaguar-XK-140MC-Royale item 290427034055

At one point, this XK140 was probably nothing more than a beat up race car bound for the scrap heap that someone bought cheap and customized it - back then.

Old cars and old boats weren't massed produced like things are now. Often they were hand crafted with what was available at the moment and somehow it all worked. Of course it often causes us no end of frustration today but hey, isn't that the fun part?!

It is interesting that the relationship between cars and these boats is so different in some ways and so similar in others. If you look at the 50's cars that have been restored to "new" condition, even being as faithful as possible to the original, they are much better than new in many ways. Back then most cars left the factory with crooked trim, horrible panel gaps, marginal paint jobs, and poor quality components. If anyone "restored" a 50's car exactly as it would have left the factory, and took it to a show, I'm sure he would be heavily criticized for doing such a crappy job! I have a really solid 59 Lake N Sea Biscayne that appears to have been well cared for over the years yet it is obvious that the gel coat was very thin (almost paper thin in places) when this boat was built. When I do a restoration it will have new gel coat done and it will be much better than the original even if the fellow doing it does a poor job! I am of the belief that as the owner of the boat you can do anything you want to your boat (or car) that makes you happy but if it is modified from the original layout or paint scheme don't call it restored.

i disagree al. i would call it restored and someway fit modified in there. i would call what your talking about to be "restored to original."

Well....

I'm in favor of anything that brings in more people and which will help change the current situation which is that only a handful of boats are worth the cost of restoration.

Every wood boat is valueable and worthy of respect. Even molded plywood mass produced boats are held in esteem. Not so Fiberglass - by a long shot... and that's somewhat understandable. The only way a 1961 Arkansas Traveller SkiJack is going to be valuable is if it's a time capsule original. Sort of like a '74 Pinto.

Our boats have had many lives. They were new and prized. They were sold to a second owner who valued it - and chopped the car radio into the dash. Then they went to the third owner as a good useable fishing boat, followed by kids who put Batman stickers on it and went bombing around the lake. Then they sat out in a field, forlorn and rotting for many years before one of us came along and pulled them out - hosed them off and sat there trying to decide what to do.

Restoration is obvious if it's a First Tier boat...but what if it's not? It costs the same money to restore a boat that'll bring back the cost as one that won't. Then I think you have to decide if you want to make it something you like...and hope somebody else will when you go to sell...or take the trim and scrap it.

If you're going to do a real custom then it's a labor of love and you know you'll end up Upside Down. The Upside to Upside Down around here is that you don't spend nearly as much as you would to get Upside Down in a car :~)

My main dislike is the use of Bass Pro Generic replacement seats in a classic boat. Looks all wrong. But...what do you do? 50's boat upholstery is easy to replicate. 60's boats - not so much. Heat stamped vinyl isn't something you can do in your kitchen - if you can please call me - and on most boats the cost of doing correct upholstery is twice what the boat is worth.

Let's start by looking at this aversion to judging - and by judging I mean People's Choice voting. When I was active in scooters in the 90's we had national rallys at which there was judging in many classes. From Best Restored Lambretta TV175 to Rat Bike and Krylon King...and everywhere in between. And you know what? People worked hard to win whatever class they entered. It was fun.
It got people to finish projects and bring them out. It fostered better work and got people to learn how to do things. It was just a $2 ribbon....but it was like a Tiara to the winner. I think we could take a lesson from that.

So what does all this mean?
I was hoping you knew.

Peter
Incoherent
in Denver