TOPIC: Picked up my Herter's Mark III Runabout.

Still not exactly sure what year it is. Early to mid-50s as far as I can find.
I've been plugging away at the problems on it. I need to rebuild the front seat, rerun the steering cables, replace the steering wheel, and start scrubbing off the bad camo job on it, then finally I'll start repairing the few small holes in the fiberglass.

I'll have to do a little bit of casting for the front seat's repair. Previous previous owner bolted some pressure treated wood into the seat, then allowed it to stay wet. Completely ate away much of the sheet metal of the seat and the bracket itself.


I'm trying to find out the capabilities of the boat. HP rating, load of the boat, how many people it can handle, etc etc. If anyone has that info I'd appreciate it.


I tried to link these pictures so that you can click on them and see a larger version

Nice, I'm guessing about 35hp max.

Bob

Waterwings wrote:

Nice, I'm guessing about 35hp max.

Bob

I found some Herter's literature that mentioned something about a 30-40HP motor. Unfortunately I don't know if that's for this boat or another one. I've seen it on most of the catalogs for most of the boats, but never exactly for the Mark III Runabout.
That's about all I have to go on

Here's the image I have for it, it's on the lefthand side, around the middle

Mr. Asa,

I have attached four pages from the 1956 and 57 Herters Fishing Catalogs.
In 1956, when the first runabouts, the Mark III and Flying Fish models, were added to the catalogs there were three “families” of catalogs being issued, Hunting, Fishing, and Marine. Each family had at least one issue per year, and an occasional “revised” edition as well. Some families listed their annual edition as being Fall-Winter-Spring issue for two years, i.e. Hunters’ Riflemen’s Gunsmiths’ and Archery Catalog Fall- Winter- Spring 1959-60 or some other seasonal sequence such as The Authentic World Source for Hunters, Fisherman, Guides, Gunsmiths, Tackle Makers, Forest Rangers, Commercial Fishermen, Trappers, and Explorers Fall/Winter 60/61. In 1960 the three families were combined into one, ending all of the more specialized catalogs
The Mark III models were built from 1956 through 1961 and appeared in Herters catalogs through 1961, although the 59-61 models all looked exactly alike.
The 56 and 57 models were similar and did not have fins. The 58 models have the short fiberglass fins similar to the 1958 through 1961 Flying Fish Standard models and are often mistaken for Flying Fish.
All Mark III models are 14 ft long. Flying Fish models are 15 ft or 15ft 4 in long.
Yours has to be a 1956 or 1957.
George Herters was known for puffing up his ad copy, (he wrote most of it himself) and was not above polishing the specs to make his products look better than competitors.
The problem of copying and pasting from one catalog and one model to another also existed. This led to a number of questions and contradictions in the various model specs.
The 1956 catalog shows the horsepower at 16 HP, except up to 25 HP for Mercury or Champion motors. I don’t know why this exception was listed, possibly because of transom height or the motor clamping system.
In 1957 it jumps to 75 HP on essentially the same boat. This is a mistake or George was pushing on the competition.
I have viewed the aluminum transoms on many unrestored Herters runabouts and every one I ever saw was cracked in multiple places, and had numerous owner beef ups to try and hold the transom from collapsing.
They can be repaired and strengthened to hold 60 HP reliably and the hull handles well with that level of power, but a 30/35 HP would be all I would try on the Mark III even with a solid transom.
The 1957 Flying Fish I am currently restoring spent it’s entire life with a 35 HP Johnson and the transom was cracked, and many modifications had been made by the owner, and this is a model with the knee brace.
From your pics it doesn't look like you have the aluminum transom knee brace. The 1956 and 57 Flying Fish had the knee brace, but it was removed from all models from 1958 on. That looked like a mistake on Herters part to me.
If you need any more info on your boat let me know.
There are very few early Mark III models around, especially with the front deck still in place. It will be nice to see one back in original condition.

Don

Don, I really appreciate the info. It's always nice to talk to someone that knows the ins and outs of what you're working on.
I've got a '55 25HP Evinrude that I picked up for pennies maybe a year ago, based on what you're saying I think it will fit on there perfectly.
I was planning on pulling the transom off of the boat and inspecting it for cracks, do you know if they were glued on at all?

Is there anything I might be able to check to nail down the year? Maybe some of the castings are different?

Judging by the painted on reg numbers, the boat was originally a Wisconsin boat, then got hauled down to Florida. Florida means salt, and as I have found a lot of the bolts are corroded enough so that they snap when I try to remove them. Have you had to replace a lot of them on any of yours, and if so do you have part numbers? I'm sure McMaster Carr has what I need if I have to start buying what might fit, but I can see that getting expensive if I don't guess correctly quickly.

Finally, do you happen to know what steering systems they used? There appears to be a Kainer wheel on the boat, but there are a couple of strange things I found when I removed it. Reading through stories of him, I know old man Herter liked to do things differently, so he likely made his own column and the like, but how do I identify that I have that?
Secondary to that, I need to figure out how they prevented the column itself from rotating around when it was bolted into the dash.

Mr. Asa,

1. The 25 HP would be fine for your Mark III.

2. Your boat doesn't look like it had hard use. First check the transom for PO modifications. Then use a straight edge to see if you have less that 1/4 in. bow in it. Finally, check it for cracks. Any cracks should be visible from the inside of the boat. No mods, minimal bow, and no cracks and you are good to go.

3. If you decide to remove the transom I have taken your transom pic and indicated where the aluminum 1/4 in. fasteners are located.
A caveat here. I have not been able to closely examine a 56/57 Mark III. I have owned a couple of newer Mark IIIs, but they have a slightly different transom set up because of the fins. The deck has to be removed to remove the transom on those. Your transom looks like it has a similar fastening pattern as the later models except your boat has two bolts on either end fastening the corner casting to the transom instead of the casting boss that fastens to the fin casting. There is no glue holding it to the fiberglass.

4. The 56/57 appear to be identical in all catalogs. Herters never assigned a year to their models. Buyers usually did that referencing the catalog they bought it out of. Herters did have one measurement, amidship width, that differed between the 56 and 57 Mark III, in various catalogs, but there was no consistency. Usually the 56 was listed with 55 in. width and the 57 at 60 in. But, there is also catalogs with the 56 at 60 in. and the 57 at 62. Very frustrating! You can measure your boat at the widest point and see what you get. I am assuming that the measurement was outside to outside, but with Herters you never know.
There is a number on all Herter castings, usually just two digits and they were never model specific. Your floorplate is casting 11 and I have seen it on 56 through 60 Herters boats of every type. At one time all the casting numbers were listed in a catalog and could be ordered. They were not assigned to a specific model.

5. Almost all fasteners in a Herters runabouts were either stainless steel or aluminum. Almost all aluminum fasteners are toast when you get them out. The aluminum was probably used to prevent corrosion problems with the castings, but they seemed to use stainless where they may have had structural problems such as the keel strip.
The best place to get aluminum and stainless fasteners is here:

www.non-ferrousfastener.com/categories.php?cat=22

They have a huge selection of aluminum fasteners and sell by the individual piece at very reasonable prices.
If you can't find it at Non-Ferrous try this place. Good stainless collection:

www.boltdepot.com/Catalog.aspx

Try to use 18-8 (also known as 304) stainless as it is the least corrosive stainless when used with aluminum.

5. You could order a Herters boat from completely bare to completely equipped so there is a good chance the Kainer wheel was installed by the buyer. There a couple of "official" steering assemblies shown in various catalogs, but in those cases they were standard off the shelf systems with George putting his stamp on them with a brass insert in the wheel center. Most steering systems are held from rotating by an inside piece that is pulled tight with a nut.
If you get a chance I would like to see more inside pics to document your boat. Pics of unmolested Mark IIIs are scarce.
I believe you can them PM to me if that would be easier than posting.

Don

Don
A lot to look at there, I'll dig through your post and give it a closer read later. Currently trying to clean out my garage and had to escape the Florida heat and mugginess for a bit.

Any particular pictures you're looking for? I have removed the seats to clean them and try and repair as much of the sheet metal as possible, but I've been taking pictures as I go.

If you have a windshield, I'd love to get measurements of it as mine came without and I forsee a need to make one at some point.

Thanks for the info!
Evan

Flying Fish wrote:

2. Your boat doesn't look like it had hard use. First check the transom for PO modifications. Then use a straight edge to see if you have less that 1/4 in. bow in it. Finally, check it for cracks. Any cracks should be visible from the inside of the boat. No mods, minimal bow, and no cracks and you are good to go.

Not hard use, but definitely not intelligent owners from what I can tell
I can't see any modifications on the transom at all, there is an aluminum plate that looks like .063" thick that doesn't necessarily look stock.
The transom definitely doesn't look bowed. My straight edge is fairly old (Grandpop's 24x16 Rafter Square) but I checked it against other items that I know were fairly straight and it came out good.

Flying Fish wrote:

3. If you decide to remove the transom I have taken your transom pic and indicated where the aluminum 1/4 in. fasteners are located.
A caveat here. I have not been able to closely examine a 56/57 Mark III. I have owned a couple of newer Mark IIIs, but they have a slightly different transom set up because of the fins. The deck has to be removed to remove the transom on those. Your transom looks like it has a similar fastening pattern as the later models except your boat has two bolts on either end fastening the corner casting to the transom instead of the casting boss that fastens to the fin casting. There is no glue holding it to the fiberglass.

I found the fasteners. They are, almost universally, solidly oxidized in place. I'm somewhat worried that I'm going to have to drill them all out.
I'd like to find some sort of thread sealant that would prevent that corrosion, but I seriously doubt that it exists in such a form that would remain easy to remove the bolts.

Flying Fish wrote:

4. The 56/57 appear to be identical in all catalogs. Herters never assigned a year to their models. Buyers usually did that referencing the catalog they bought it out of. Herters did have one measurement, amidship width, that differed between the 56 and 57 Mark III, in various catalogs, but there was no consistency. Usually the 56 was listed with 55 in. width and the 57 at 60 in. But, there is also catalogs with the 56 at 60 in. and the 57 at 62. Very frustrating! You can measure your boat at the widest point and see what you get. I am assuming that the measurement was outside to outside, but with Herters you never know.
There is a number on all Herter castings, usually just two digits and they were never model specific. Your floorplate is casting 11 and I have seen it on 56 through 60 Herters boats of every type. At one time all the casting numbers were listed in a catalog and could be ordered. They were not assigned to a specific model.

At it's widest point it's 60 inches, but as you said it doesn't necessarily say anything.
The bow cap appears to have been designed for a traditional red/green light, if it wasn't then someone with better machining skills than worked on the rest of the boat did the work there. Oh well, a spread of two years is a lot better than a spread of 10 or so

Flying Fish wrote:

5. Almost all fasteners in a Herters runabouts were either stainless steel or aluminum. Almost all aluminum fasteners are toast when you get them out. The aluminum was probably used to prevent corrosion problems with the castings, but they seemed to use stainless where they may have had structural problems such as the keel strip.
The best place to get aluminum and stainless fasteners is here:

www.non-ferrousfastener.com/categories.php?cat=22

They have a huge selection of aluminum fasteners and sell by the individual piece at very reasonable prices.
If you can't find it at Non-Ferrous try this place. Good stainless collection:

www.boltdepot.com/Catalog.aspx

Try to use 18-8 (also known as 304) stainless as it is the least corrosive stainless when used with aluminum.

I was wondering about whether I should go with SS or Al. Dad and I were talking about it and I was thinking of aluminum solely as that would have the least reaction, but considering what I'm seeing with these bolts I'm unsure if I should even worry about creating an electrochemical cell between the Al and SS. It might be better to just go with SS bolts so that I have a little bit of strength in the material if I need to get it out at a later date.
Good source on the bolts. Looks to be a penny better per bolt than McMaster, when there's a hundred bolts or so that works out favorably.

Flying Fish wrote:

5. You could order a Herters boat from completely bare to completely equipped so there is a good chance the Kainer wheel was installed by the buyer. There a couple of "official" steering assemblies shown in various catalogs, but in those cases they were standard off the shelf systems with George putting his stamp on them with a brass insert in the wheel center. Most steering systems are held from rotating by an inside piece that is pulled tight with a nut.
If you get a chance I would like to see more inside pics to document your boat. Pics of unmolested Mark IIIs are scarce.
I believe you can them PM to me if that would be easier than posting.

I've got a couple of pictures of another Mark III and it's wheel, it appears to be a match for mine other than the brass insert (mine might've fallen off at some point, the chrome cap was painted but it looked as if there were a circle of something put into it when wet.)
I don't know that I like the standard method of fastening them to the firewall. I think I'll machine a couple of tabs, weld 'em to the exterior column, then drill and tap them so that there's a bolted connection to the firewall.

Started the cleaning process. The crappy paint is coming up fairly well. Basically just did wet sanding, started with 220, then pushed it to about 600 grit. Aluminum needs polishing, but the hull has come out fairly well, a wax job and it should be smooth. That one red spot is a patch I believe, needs a lot of work to smooth it, I think I'll need to flip the boat over to get it smoothed properly.

Not keeping the registration letters on for any reason, just was easier to get everything else up surrounding the letters.

Sweet looking boat Mr Asa.

I have a 1960 Herter's St Lawrence I hope to get started on in the near future. Have fun with your project. It is well worth the effort.

Al