TOPIC: 'Rude vs. Merc - advice?

I'm looking for a period-appropriate motor for my '66 Glastron Futura V-150. Something in the 1960-1970 era.

I have a line on a 1965 Evinrude 75hp V-4 Starflite VII that looks to be in good shape. But the co-owner of my boat leans towards the the 1960's Mercs. Neither of us is particularly motor-savvy. It's more about aesthetics and the likelihood that a motor will be sturdy, dependable and reasonably affordable in the long run, assuming good general condition and good maintenance.

Sorry to ask such a broad question, but can anyone offer opinions about the relative merits of the Evinrudes and Mercurys of this era - most specifically, of the mid-1960s? Things like overall reliability, availability of parts, any particular warnings about "issues" that some of the motor or years may have? Like, "Stay away from X model or Y year . . ." - that sort of thing.

Much obliged.


Ken

I'm certainly no expert, but I found that everybody has "reasons", some which may be based on one or two motor experiencees. Others have been working on them forever. Ask 100, it may be split evenly. [Of course Homlite, Chrysler and others have their own following.]

For me, I found that the merc 4 cyl. weighs less than a comparable hp johnnyrude, which was one reason I chose Merc. Perhaps others can offer evidence of reliability or parts availability [subjective], or fuel economy vs. hole-shot torque.

I greatly appreciate the comments and hope others can weigh in as well.

Hey Ken, welcome to FG. I started out with a '62 Merc 700FGS cause it was on the Cutter Tornado I bought, (my first 'Glassic!), I redid everything you can without cracking the crankcase apart, including the wiring harness on the motor, and it ran great. I thought "I'm a Merc guy now!".

Then I ran across a '73 Glastron V178 Starflite, had to have it even though it had a V4 Johnson 115 on it, and now I love that motor too. (Had to basically do the same, rebuilt carbs, fuel pump, hoses, water pump, etc..) The Johnson is shorter, easier to see over top. But much wider, don't have as much room horizontally on the transom. I gotta tell you honestly, the Johnson is easier to work on. (Had the carbs off in 30 minutes for rebuild, the Merc took a day's worth of removing stuff in the way.)

I guess to me either one is acceptable, just depends on how well it was taken care of. I got lucky with both motors, just had to replace stuff that aged to the point of deterioration. Growing up you were either a Ford guy or a Chevy guy, there was no "fence straddling". Now days I'm more about value for the dollars I spend, brand names aren't the main factor anymore.

Merc dealers are more plentiful in my area (ATL, GA), so that would weight heavily if money were no object in purchasing a new motor, but BRP makes the old OMC stuff available to this day so it's only a mouse click away. Plus they offer the illustrated parts breakdown, which I have found most helpful.
www.johnson.com/en-US/

Sorry, not much help, huh!

Mark, thanks a million. Your comments are exactly the sort of advice I was hoping to get in response to my post. I take it that that's your Johnson in the photo - it looks fantastic.

As you say, it's not necessarily the brand that's important to me, but more things like how easy or not easy it will be for an inexperienced person to do minor maintenance, whether there are local mechanics with experience, that sort of thing. Out here in Seattle we have Sea-Way (sea-way.com) which is experienced with classic Evinrude/Johnson as well as with Mercury, so I think I'm in good shape in that regard.

I like your comment about with the larger size of the Johnson/Evinrude making it a little easier to work on the motor. The Mercs are certainly sleek - which is what my brother (co-owner) likes - but there's perhaps a little disadvantage to that. In addition to the practical considerations, I like the appearance of the mid-60s Evinrudes/Johnsons because those "bulbous" body lines are uniquely of that era, whereas the "streamlined" appearance of the Mercs has remained similar over time.

I'm grateful that you took the time to reply. Your comments really are helpful.

Ken

Mercs are lighter but the period correct Evinrude/Johnson V Blocks definitely produce more bottom end power for pulling tubes, skis, fully loaded boat, etc.

Very helpful - thanks.

Another consideration- propellers. Mercs had a better selection, and slightly larger diameter with more blade area, and thru hub exhaust. I'm an OMC fan, but prefer thru hub exhaust motors for prop tuning choices, and performance options. Also, if you want power trim, Merc is your choice there, too. Just my three cents worth.....

By "power trim" do you mean tilt and trim? (Sorry I have to ask.) Are you saying that weren't/aren't any options for Evinrude/johnson power trim - or only that the Merc options are more widely available now some 40+ years later?

My memory isn't great, but I believe OMC only offered power tilt in the mid sixties. Earliest power trim I recall wasn't until early 70's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Above 50hp you are into the V4 in the OMC range.
In the Merc you have the 65 up to the 1100.
Merc is simpler, no thermostat, no voltage regulator or clipper ckt, no electric shift.
If you boat in saltwater, the older mercs had steel (not ss) driveshafts, and in my experience do not do as well if you don't flush/rinse thoroughly.
V4 is a better fit tilted up into some splashwells, better sound insulation, the one piece cover easier to deal with.

In my experience the inlines do pretty well for fuel economy, a bit better than the OMC V4's for a given hp. I have some old seatrial data to back that up too. But, the average boater spent 50hrs on the water underway per year, any many on here are less so fuel consumption likely not the top of the criteria list.

The key to a happy experience with any motor is the initial condition of either an OMC or Merc.
If you take time to get one in good condition then maintain her, either way you're a winner.

Some of those space alien Erudes look cool, go to www.old-omc.de/ and check out the catalogs. Or to www.oldmercs.com

I've run both, enjoyed both. Clint is running a 67 Johnson 100hp I took off an old Glasspar, it's been wonderful only requiring impeller change and a starter. My friend Bruce has a 1964 Johnson 90hp Golden Meteor on his Skagit 20 that was installed new. He's replaced the fuel pump, resealed the lower unit, replaced one head gasket, points/plugs/impeller etc over the last 46 years. It just did a one week vacation on Lake Cour' d Alene in Idaho never missing a beat. Seeing engine reliability like this first hand by cruising with these guys makes you take notice. Again, getting one in good condition is of primary importance.

There's not much difference in appearance from a mid sixties inline six and an 80's inline six from 20 yards away. You can't go wrong with an inline six in 90 or 115hp (prop rated no less) from 82-88. Simple, strong, last seemingly forever with good maintenance. Smooth with six small pistons firing every crankshaft revolution. I've run several of the inline six mercs from 1964 100hp, 1979 140hp (crank rated), to the later 115hp (prop rated, same as old 140) and loved them all. Have a Mariner inline six on the back of my Dolphin now, have a 1999 Erude Ficht 115hp on my Skagit, and prepping a Homelite for my Skagit 17 and Power Cat 14T. Enjoy them all.

If it were me I'd look at Merc and OMC, and take the one in best turnkey condition that both of you can live with. The 66-68 100hp is a nice motor in the OMC, the 65 Merc is a very nice engine a bit heavy but uses same lower unit as the bigger models so really understressed.
Any engine that is reliable is a good engine regardless of make, in my opinion.

PS: I love the look of this Erude:
old-omc.de/e_1967/seite_06_07.jpg

Regarding power trim, easiest way to get it on a period correct motor is to get a CMC trim n tilt bracket, or a Panther, or a PowerTran. I have them.

This is the one I'm interested in: 1965 Evinrude V-4 Starflite 75hp. Very "space alien" indeed! That's what I like about the mid-60s Evinrudes - they have a real "Jetsons" look to my eye. I nice fit for my 1966 Glastron Futura V-150. But the Mercs are non-too-shabby and I was all over them until this one caught my eye recently.

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

billr wrote:

Above 50hp you are into the V4 in the OMC range.
In the Merc you have the 65 up to the 1100.
Merc is simpler, no thermostat, no voltage regulator or clipper ckt, no electric shift.
If you boat in saltwater, the older mercs had steel (not ss) driveshafts, and in my experience do not do as well if you don't flush/rinse thoroughly.
V4 is a better fit tilted up into some splashwells, better sound insulation, the one piece cover easier to deal with.

In my experience the inlines do pretty well for fuel economy, a bit better than the OMC V4's for a given hp. I have some old seatrial data to back that up too. But, the average boater spent 50hrs on the water underway per year, any many on here are less so fuel consumption likely not the top of the criteria list.

The key to a happy experience with any motor is the initial condition of either an OMC or Merc.
If you take time to get one in good condition then maintain her, either way you're a winner.

Some of those space alien Erudes look cool, go to www.old-omc.de/ and check out the catalogs. Or to www.oldmercs.com

I've run both, enjoyed both. Clint is running a 67 Johnson 100hp I took off an old Glasspar, it's been wonderful only requiring impeller change and a starter. My friend Bruce has a 1964 Johnson 90hp Golden Meteor on his Skagit 20 that was installed new. He's replaced the fuel pump, resealed the lower unit, replaced one head gasket, points/plugs/impeller etc over the last 46 years. It just did a one week vacation on Lake Cour' d Alene in Idaho never missing a beat. Seeing engine reliability like this first hand by cruising with these guys makes you take notice. Again, getting one in good condition is of primary importance.

There's not much difference in appearance from a mid sixties inline six and an 80's inline six from 20 yards away. You can't go wrong with an inline six in 90 or 115hp (prop rated no less) from 82-88. Simple, strong, last seemingly forever with good maintenance. Smooth with six small pistons firing every crankshaft revolution. I've run several of the inline six mercs from 1964 100hp, 1979 140hp (crank rated), to the later 115hp (prop rated, same as old 140) and loved them all. Have a Mariner inline six on the back of my Dolphin now, have a 1999 Erude Ficht 115hp on my Skagit, and prepping a Homelite for my Skagit 17 and Power Cat 14T. Enjoy them all.

If it were me I'd look at Merc and OMC, and take the one in best turnkey condition that both of you can live with. The 66-68 100hp is a nice motor in the OMC, the 65 Merc is a very nice engine a bit heavy but uses same lower unit as the bigger models so really understressed.
Any engine that is reliable is a good engine regardless of make, in my opinion.

PS: I love the look of this Erude:
old-omc.de/e_1967/seite_06_07.jpg

Regarding power trim, easiest way to get it on a period correct motor is to get a CMC trim n tilt bracket, or a Panther, or a PowerTran. I have them.

EXCELLENT info!!

I can see some of you are trying to be kind and diplomatic ( i.e. waffling) on the subject. Not me. The correct answer is, of course, go with the OMC.
I suppose the question of parts availability and prices should be considered. And, did they still build Mercury "dockbusters" without full gear shifts after 1960 ? Down in Florida waters, ( salt and brackish) the Mercury motors always showed a lot of lower unit corrosion compared to the OMC motors, even though the Mercs often had sacrificial zinc anodes bolted to the lower units. Anyone have information on that subject ?
Yes, I'm biased toward OMC. The only Merc I ever owned was a 10 hp. Hurricane ( no gear shift) that ran like crazy for 5 to 10 minutes, after which I rowed back home. Again and again. Old memories die hard.
Edit- Out of guilt, I must admit that the motor I had before the Merc was a 2 1/2 hp. Johnson, circa 1950 vintage, and it also ran for an average of 5 to 10 minutes before something else broke. Being much slower, however, the row back was shorter.

Yikes, hard hitting but exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for! Might help me advance my arguments for OMC against the co-owner.

Power to weight ratio is no contest.....Merc wins! I used to run those one ton Starflites around. Good reliable motors?? Yes, good bottom end grunt? Yes but my 70 hp Merc weighs almost ( if not more than 100 ) pounds less than my 50 did and it was a gashog and my Merc is way faster. I've never had any problems with my Merc and you won't either if you set them up right and maintain them! That Glastron is screamin', for a Mercury!!! Don't get me wrong though, I do have a love for the old "E's", so much so, I can't find it in me to sell my old V4, I may come across a nice "cruiser" in the future!

( i.e. waffling)

I prefer to think of it as keeping an open mind, thank you. The purpose of my post was to throw some opinion, personal experience, and facts out there, which I believe is what Ken requested. I wouldn't try to sway someone else's decision one way or another, it's not my style. (Sets you up for taking the blame if it doesn't turn out well, plus at the risk of sounding selfish, the more folks who buy Mercs the more OMCs there are left out there!)

To me, the "power to weight ratio" argument doesn't hold much water, the torque on my V4 more than outweighs the little increase in weight. (Don't have the exact numbers to compare after my computer crash.) The fuel consumption issue is well documented, but after reading the recent post about this subject I don't feel as bad. If I keep mine around 3500 (28-30mph)with minimal blasts at WOT, I burn about 9 gal's in around 4 1/2 hrs of steady running. When prop testing, with mostly "hammer time" (40mph +/-) running, the same 9 gal's lasted about 3(+)hrs. I can live with that. (12 gal tank, but running out of gas is "self-inflicted" misery, IMHO!)

Happy boating everybody. (WHATEVER you're running for power!)

MarkS wrote:

the more folks who buy Mercs the more OMCs there are left out there!)

To me, the "power to weight ratio" argument doesn't hold much water,

That doesn't mean I won't be buying any "jego's"!!

I'm a hot rodder.....power to weight ratio is everything to me!

Couple that with fuel economy and it's a winner in my book anyday!

It's his boat....his decision, he asked for opinions. It's a vintage boat, he's a winner either way............

It's a vintage boat, he's a winner either way............

Roger that, Jim!

Mercury is still #1 on the water

Yup, that's what they say! One year they "set the water on fire". It's all good.

Here's what I would do...
Get yourself a 1980s era Johnrude 60-75hp 3-cylinder and drop a 1968 or 1969 55hp cowling on it, with paint on the lower to match. Gives you 1960s looks with much more modern motor, better parts availability, and power trim option. In that horsepower range you'd be hard pressed to find a better motor by any maker...

What a great thread - terrific advice, diehard comments, balanced and the experience you are tapping into - priceless - so, here is a comment from someone who started four months ago on the adventure, if I read correctly, that you are about to embark on as a novice with one of the motors you are interested in.

I came across a 1966 Starflite 100-S by default as it was attached to the back of the boat I bought (at my kids insistence..) and have, thanks to this forum and many of the folks who are piping in now, brought it back to life (still in process) after likely 40 yrs of sitting.

So, from a novice perspective as it relates to the Starflite line – parts are readily available for most required service items and, surprisingly are not that expensive. Support materials, manuals, service books have all been available; layout and ability to follow it’s construction and how it actually works as you are working on it for a novice is surprisingly easy if you have any eye for detail and an ability to work with your hands.

Can’t talk to Merc – can say they are truly beautiful, but what I have is certainly no slouch and it’s been a treat to work on – just my personal experience.

Whichever way you go you will continue to receive this kind of expert, insightful and keen advice and interest in what it is you end up with in this forum,

Good luck with it - for me, it’s been insanely fun which is why I suppose there are so many of us doing this in the first place

My forum experience can be found in the 1966 Evinrude Starfite 100-S Advice postings.
Matthew

Matt, I'm glad that this thread has been of such interest to you - it certainly was for me. I went ahead and bought the 1965 Evinrude Starflite 75hp I was looking at, based in part on the comments here.

I've read some of your posts and they're helping me a lot. My motor runs but I don't have everything hooked up yet - working on that this week with the goal of a maiden voyage this weekend.


Ken

PS: I love the look of this Erude:
old-omc.de/e_1967/seite_06_07.jpg,i have a 63 ,75hp rude starflite v,selectric shift like this going on the sunray,as soon as its ready ,it will look good(i think painted to match the sunray),ed had it running when we bought it,but it ran a little rough so some work is going to be involved.
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