TOPIC: Nauticus Smart Tabs

For what it's worth I experimented with placing weight here or there. ie. Fuel, battery, gear, etc when setting up my boat. I found that placing load fwd aggravated porpoising.

My boat seems to like 'junk in the trunk'. Fuel, etc as close to the transom as possible.

Ya. No offense but I'd go out'n pick up a fat girl before I added 'ballast' to one of these boats?

the more i think of houston's reasoning...the more i like it. maybe because it only cost me 6 bucks for sand.lolol

all that drag scrubbing off horsepower, thats like driving with an nearly flat tire

each to his own lolol

Btw raising the motor will cure porpoising but sometimes brings on a far more frightening phenomena known as chine walking ...?

71 V153 wrote:

Btw raising the motor will cure porpoising but sometimes brings on a far more frightening phenomena known as chine walking ...?

not disagreeing with you but so the water doesnt get clouded any further the problem here is with Franks hull, were talking different hull designs here and its pretty difficult to get a cat hull to chine walk its one of the main bragging points of the powercat

vuyosevich wrote:

frank, i hope i'm not hijacking your post but its the same problem.
mark,i refuse to drill new holes in the transom. if someone could do it (i'll pay of course) and guarantee that it would solve the problem, i'm all for it.
joe, i understand the drag principle. thats why i'm getting a waterfall into the splashwell at wot.
frank, did the sand make ANY difference, and did you try putting the bags in the front?

these are some ideas i've received but all mean having to drill new holes an inch or so higher and then i'm into a transom crossbrace which looks like a 2x4. the holes cannot be drilled from the inside either.

Ron, I'll take you up on that offer. Wouldn't drill any holes until you are satisfied, and could have a bracket made up for you in advance. Just bring it up on the Thursday before the Buffalo Show, (Custom Craft Reunion) and we'll get it done. Send me your paint and I'll even get the bracket painted for you. Probably should be up about 1 1/2" to 2", which would put the bolts right under the splash well and through that 2" x 4" where they should be anyway. It would be nice to put this one to rest.

dave, i can't travel a distance like that twice in the same year. i'm retired now and fuel, food and lodging for 3 days at silver cost me $770. buffalo would be more.

vuyosevich wrote:

dave, i can't travel a distance like that twice in the same year. i'm retired now and fuel, food and lodging for 3 days at silver cost me $770. buffalo would be more.

There's always next year. ;~)

Darn decent of you to offer though Dave, 'preciate you helping Ron out like that! Maybe next year?

MadProps wrote:

Frank evidence of what Joe Poole is explaining can be seen in your video named "my video 14".....see frames 15, 16 & 17 the water is hitting the fin shooting upwards and dragging on your boat I had the same issue on a tunnel boat
raise your motor I bet you gain 5 mph or better, then you can worry about props if necessary

Here's the problem with raising my motor at all Michael. I drilled all the bolt holes to be at the bottom of the slots. In hindsight, very stupid, but I bet I did it to avoid the crossmember under my splashpan and the stainless transom cap (for the trim brackets). That hole in the trim pump mount you see is to access motor bolts. If I up 1/2 or 3/4" I'd probably have to fill the old holes with shredded mat and resin before I could drill new holes.

I got a 17 pitch 3 blade prop coming from a buddy down in TX, should be here Monday. Got a buddy here lending me a 15 pitch 2 blade brass race prop too. I think that 17 pitch might do the trick, but what do I know? I'm gonna try that first anyways. In the meantime I'll do some more research on how I could get that motor up without spending more than 10 or 20 bucks.

Frank

F - Man, you ask for help you're gonna get it here! Been checking in and seeing how it's going. Here's my thoughts on what I've read.

1.) Sand bags - bad idea. OEM didn't need ballast, and neither do we.

2.) I still think your problem is riding through the porpoising and getting the nose up. The last video you posted you had the motor tucked in which is why it was plowing water. 100 hp should be more than enough to lift the bow...with the right prop.

3.) Try the 17 3 blade that Dave is sending you. I'd like to try it on the Missile too. Some place in the shop I know I have a 23 and 19 3 blade. The 23 was on the 1350 when I bought it. I have a recollection of selling one, but I can't imagine I sold the 23.

4.) Did you ever, with the boat sitting on the trailer and the motor not running, push the throttle control all the way fwd, then go back to the motor, disconnect the throttle and manually try to advance it more? Are you certain you're getting the full throttle range? There is an adjustment at the connection if you aren't. I had that problem on one of 59 Rudes on the Cruisers that Chinewalker found. A few turns on the adjuster made a HUGE difference.

5.) Regarding Ron's boat, as I've said before, the problem is simple, the transom needs to be put back the way it was when built. The cutout needs to be replaced. My 61 Manta Ray is the same hull as Ron's. With the 1350 on it and the 2 blade stainless prop you tried that boat ran in the high 50's and never got anything over the transom. Do not have T&T on it, I just picked the pin position that worked, and did it ever work. The boat ran on the last couple of feet of the hull and the sponson transoms when it touched back down. No porpoising at all. Now that's twice the hp Ron has on his boat, but I'd still expect a 70 hp to push the boat well into the 40's and be able to carry the bow. Again, these boats did when they were built in the 60's, no reason they won't today if they are set up correctly.

Went to DMV in Riverhead, LI yesterday. What a thrill to be there with the temps at 96 at 11 AM! Got three trailers registered including the one for the Missile. Got all the paper work from DMV to register the Missile which I'll be working on today.

We have Bayside Island in the St. Lawrence starting July 23rd for 2 full weeks. Can't wait!

Good luck Frank. Don't get discouraged. It's all part of the trip.

Brian

B, in response:

1. Sand bags are coming out, already made that decision. Danny had suggested weight in the back might help, so I figured it was worth a try.

2. When I try and ride through the porpoising, it's way more thrill (and bouncing) than I can handle. Trust me, I've tried driving through it a number of times. In that video you mention, the motor is trimmed out more than it was before I put those trim tabs on!

3. I'm trying props first before screwing around raising the motor.

4. When I'm at WOT, the butterflies are fully open. I have not tried doing what you suggest, but it would not be hard to do.

It's hard not to get discouraged, but I don't have much choice other than muddling ahead. At least I can get out and putter around at 4 grand doing 20-25, and mama's happy. Tach should be here today (although I doubt I'm gonna work on it today - too darn hot), prop should be here Monday. We'll see how it goes.

When do you get back home?

Frank

Saturday night. Will call.

F. I think I suggested before, but you may have missed it:

When we were looking at the motor at Silver, Tim suggested that you get the correct diameter prop for clearance on you trim tab. A smaller diameter prop will work the same as a smaller pitch in upping your revs, which you need. I would try a 19P of the proper diameter.

I also noticed that you had the motor trimmed in too far in that video taken from the shore.

I know you may not like to hear this, but I think others are suggesting that you remove all the bandaids, (trim tabs, sand bags) and do the best at setting it up before you resort to these sorts of things.

For what you want, these may be the best solution, but you won't really know unless you try all the other options first, (without the tabs influencing the results).

Dave, I have a 19P of the right diameter, it's screwy. The motor does not apparently like 2 blade props, I've tried a 19 and a 22 to no avail. At least it seems to work with my 21P 3 blade. Next is a 17P 3 blade. And I think diameter of a blade has a lot to do with performance, but I may be wrong there. I think that is the point Joe Poole was making with comparison photos of props.

I AM taking the sand bags out if you read my response to Brian just above here. Unhooking the trim tabs is easy. No need to remove all the hardware mounted on the transom, just pulling the tabs will do the trick.

If all else fails, no more wide open running. I'll cruise around at 4 grand, 20-25 mph and enjoy it.

As you might imagine, I'm getting tired of screwing around with this boat. After nearly 4 years of trying to get an old boat restored and on the water, I've about had it. It would be different if I had spare cash to throw after props (and whatever else), but I don't. If I did, I'd buy a good working Hydrostream and be done with it.

Frank

Bingo, and then only change one thing at time so you can see the effects, good or bad.

Frank
if you have a brace in the way of motor mounting bolts , get 4 pieces of aluminum "L" stock and make an adjustable jackplate, you can bolt the Jackplate where ever you need to and raise that motor to the desired height your hull will also benefit from the set back created by the Jackplate

the sand bags and trim tabs need to be removed or disconnected as stated above, to get true results

you wont be screwing around with raising the motor height...you will be screwing around if you dont address it

good luck

How would I run my PT&T if I did that Michael? Got any pics of one? I'm pretty handy with metal fab, but would need to know what sort of aluminum and thickness to buy. Actually I have an old Power Tran unit at home, but the tilt stuff doesn't work (needs a new ram, out of my price range). I think it has adjustment, but maybe not much.

Frank

This a pic of my unit from their web site: www.powrtran.com/ All the aluminum is in good shape.

I did read where you removed the sand bags, just wanted to mention it as another bandaid.

Don't get discouraged now, a little more time now setting it up and you'll be happy with it for life.

If you find a prop shop that will work with you as myself and others have suggested, it won't cost you a fortune.

Raising the motor costs next to nothing.

It's all just time at that point, which I know seems frustrating now, but just keep your eye on the bigger picture, a properly setup boat that you can use as you like for as long as you want.

Keep up the good work, you are an inspiration to many here.

If I only had about 5 grand, this is what I would be driving:

HYDROSTREAM VECTOR 1979, 2.4, 200HP, foot throttle, Livorsi gauges, new paint & interior, 85+HP, $4800

Somebody has no doubt already figured this boat out. I could test drive it, buy it if I want. I could get a loan, but I decided a long time ago, no loan or credit cards for toys, cash only. Being an old Hydrostream though, it probably has its own problems.

We're close to Albany, but the only dedicated prop shop I know is quite a hike to be running back & forth all the time. Raising the motor might not cost anything, but will be a real pain, in part because I have PT&T. My back is not good on top of that, and I really don't need to aggravate it. I have enough trouble putting a 6 gallon tank of gas in the boat!

Oh well.

Frank:
As we discussed, your mounting height is perfect as it
is. The only reason to go higher would be if your goal
was top end max speed, and you would be sacrificing all
low end take-off, and driveability you are looking for
in your boat. All the guys that are jacking up the motors
are not looking for a boat that you can take your wife out
in for a nice boat ride, which from what you have said is
one of your primary uses for the boat.
Brian's suggestion on checking further into the settings
of the control cable in relation to the throttle opening
and ignition advance settings is a good idea.
It all has to work together to get you to WOT and
attain max rpms.
The prop that Dave is sending you may also be the ticket.
It does sound like the Tabs have helped in controling the
porposeing to some extent, but as you have reported so far
they have done so at the cost of some speed. I am hoping
that once you get your rpms up and thus your speed, that
you will be able to back off the Tab settings so you will
not have them at max pressure so they are not as much of a
drag on your speed.
Getting the right prop is going make a world of difference.
You have seen and heard what many of the Power Cat guys have
gone thru on that issue alone, and there is no magic bullet
to solve this selection process. Its trial and error and
everyone has to be willing to go thru it. Expecting it to
be perfect after only trying a couple of used props that just
happen to be laying around is unrealistic. You have no idea
if someone modified the prop your trying, it could be cupped,
ground down, re-pitched, or who knows what. Dealing with 40
year old used equipment is a crap shoot at best, so don't
give up the quest.
Danny Leger
Austin, Texas

PC1000 wrote:

How would I run my PT&T if I did that Michael? Got any pics of one? I'm pretty handy with metal fab, but would need to know what sort of aluminum and thickness to buy. Actually I have an old Power Tran unit at home, but the tilt stuff doesn't work (needs a new ram, out of my price range). I think it has adjustment, but maybe not much.

Frank

This a pic of my unit from their web site:

PC1000 wrote:

Kerry wrote:

Frank- Looking at the pic above, you can raise up to 2" before beginning to "uncover" your water intakes- remember, water coming off the transom angles upward. You shouldn't need that much, but can rest assured you have a margin of safety for water pressure. I hate to mention anything that costs serious money, but if drilling more holes is taboo, what about a manual transom jack that uses a ratchet to raise/lower the motor in small increments? Lets you do a lot of testing without pulling the boat out of the water every time.

Drilling more holes for me is NOT taboo. Just so ya know. But with the heat index over 100 today I ain't even goin out to look! Call me a pussy, but that's the deal. Supposed to be brutal till Friday or so.

Frank

Got the same weather here in W. Mich. Haven't worked outside on my old outboards at all this week. Work (factory) is brutal, central air at home is heavenly. Getting a break from the humidity by Friday.

Thanks Danny. You know more about these boats than anybody I've run into (and for a good reason). And yes, I'm looking for an all-around boat that I can fish, pull tubers, cruise with the little woman, take the kids and their grandmother out, etc. I would like to see a bit more mph, but it really is no big deal. Gail and I have fun just cruising the Hudson at 20-25 and enjoying it. Actually when we were out Monday we stopped and visited with a fellow in a '59 Cutter done in the same colors as our Power Cat. That was kinda cool.

I'm looking forward to getting that prop from David and giving it a try. My new outboard tach will be here today too, but I may have to take the fenders off the trailer to get the boat in my AC'ed garage to do that work! Brutal temps here for us cream puff northerners.

Thanks again,

Frank

powercat wrote:

Frank:
As we discussed, your mounting height is perfect as it
is. The only reason to go higher would be if your goal
was top end max speed, and you would be sacrificing all
low end take-off, and driveability you are looking for
in your boat. All the guys that are jacking up the motors
are not looking for a boat that you can take your wife out
in for a nice boat ride, which from what you have said is
one of your primary uses for the boat.
Brian's suggestion on checking further into the settings
of the control cable in relation to the throttle opening
and ignition advance settings is a good idea.
It all has to work together to get you to WOT and
attain max rpms.
The prop that Dave is sending you may also be the ticket.
It does sound like the Tabs have helped in controling the
porposeing to some extent, but as you have reported so far
they have done so at the cost of some speed. I am hoping
that once you get your rpms up and thus your speed, that
you will be able to back off the Tab settings so you will
not have them at max pressure so they are not as much of a
drag on your speed.
Getting the right prop is going make a world of difference.
You have seen and heard what many of the Power Cat guys have
gone thru on that issue alone, and there is no magic bullet
to solve this selection process. Its trial and error and
everyone has to be willing to go thru it. Expecting it to
be perfect after only trying a couple of used props that just
happen to be laying around is unrealistic. You have no idea
if someone modified the prop your trying, it could be cupped,
ground down, re-pitched, or who knows what. Dealing with 40
year old used equipment is a crap shoot at best, so don't
give up the quest.
Danny Leger
Austin, Texas

Kerry wrote:

Got the same weather here in W. Mich. Haven't worked outside on my old outboards at all this week. Work (factory) is brutal, central air at home is heavenly. Getting a break from the humidity by Friday.

It will be nice to get a break Kerry, too hot for me. Got plenty to do outside, just try and get at it before the sun comes up. Even then, it was 72 when I was out screwing around at 6 this a.m.!

Frank

MarkS wrote:

Darn decent of you to offer though Dave, 'preciate you helping Ron out like that! Maybe next year?

mark, i emailed dave after i read his post and told him that i couldn't make 2 - 3 day trips in the same year due to finances. i'm retired now and for the rest of the year i'm limited to a 1 nights stay and around a 2 to 2 1/2 hr. drive. yes it was nice of dave to offer to help but i wouldn't think anything else of our great northeasters. mark, frank, tim, have all helped me in the past, and what john gibson has offered, well lets just say whenever i think of it, tears flow. i wish all of us had met at a younger age...ron

Going to pick up my tabs tomorrow...hopefully will have a full writeup\review on them in the next week or so.

Hi Danny,
I do not believe we have ever met, but we did sell Bob Brown's The Avenger Boats for about 20 years. What a first class person to do business with!
I have studied Frank's picture several times, but in the end, I cannot tell what the true engine height is. I do agree that if it is at 1" above, that raising the motor should not help. However, sometimes the height appears to be more like 3/8" or so. At this height, I do think some additional height could be necessary. I would like to see Frank double-check the dimension with a level on the hull, with the end adjacent to the ventilation plate. When the outboard is carefully set parallel, then check the difference with a ruler. I do not think well though of setting the engine back very much, particularly considering how Frank wishes to use the boat. I guess this leaves a metal plate between the transom and outboard thick enough to be drilled and tapped, and bolted from both sides (plate to boat, motor to plate). For testing to see if a little more engine height helps, the plate used does not have to be as nice if the change was made permanent.
There are numerous propellers out in the world, but only a slim few 17" pitch propellers with high rake. Unless the propeller has a lot more than I think, there will very likely not be a solution here. Also, usually a low (relatively) rake prop will ventilate in turns if not fully trimmed under at 1" up. I would not want to be in an emergency situation, and then not be able to turn sharply around without the need to trim fully under.

Best Regards,
Joe Poole, Jr.
Ferguson-Poole, Inc. (Marine Sales & Service since 1951)
Buford, Georgia

Hi Jer,
Free advice is probably what it is worth. However if you must install the smart tabs, consider installing them out as close as reasonable to the chimes (edges of the transom where it meets the sides). Also, instead of flush with the hull, consider mounting them 3/4" to 1" above. They will still work well at low to medium speeds, but can be raised to prevent speed loss at high speeds (when mounted flush you either remove them or you are stuck).

Regards,
Joe

Good for you Jer. I was looking at our local craiglist last night and found a brand new set of Smart Tabs, still in the box, same as the ones I got, for 75 bucks! Guy says he bought them for his boat, then sold the boat before he installed them.

My new Teleflex tach got here yesterday, but it's a tad too warm to be working on da boat. Maybe over the weekend.

Good luck!

Frank

Having seen Frank's motor set up up close and personal I would not advocate for raising it any more. The picture of the cavitation plate and the transom Frank took shows a very handsome young man (hey that's me!) in the photo looking over the set up. Frank worked hard on the transom to get the plate 1" above the bottom. I think that's perfect for an all around boat setup.

For S&G, are there any Boathouse Bulletins on the 14T, power they ran, and did they get as detailed as propellers, pin holes, etc. in those reports?

It's a cloudy day here! What a relief after more days than I can count in the 90's with brilliant sun. The pool has got to be in the low 80's but still very refreshing, as is the very cold beer in the cooler.

Who's S&G B?

Dick Davis says 3rd pin hole out, but I got power trim. Hmmmmm.

Kinda sticky here too B.

F

F - Shi%s and Grins is S&S! Was wondering if there was a boat house bulletin on your craft as Mercury used Power Cats as test platforms and vice versa.

Oh, okay, I get the S & G now, thanks. (duh)

Ah, but I brought this on myself B. There is no Power Cat 14T from the factory like mine. I have a custom standard shaft transom, apparently that is the problem?

Frank

It's been a long time since I've thought about this stuff. 12 years ago I had a Glastron V-192 with a Merc 175hp Black Max, original rig. It worked but was a problem child. A holeshot would rusult in a wheelie and cavitate the prop. It would cavitate in the corners very easy unless under 15 mph. It would porpise very badly. These got uncontrolable while trying to pull a skier...if I gould get them up. Top speed was 38 mph and it sounded like the motor was not running full throttle.

Many people gave me their opinions and I soaked them all up. The same that has been said here. Try this prop, try that prop, trim tabs, raise the motor-lower the motor, jack plate etc. As it was said earlier...there is no magic bullet...well, the practice ammo is not cheap. The cost of all these "try its" was over twice what I paid for the boat.

Near the end of the summer I found a Sting Ray(I)stabilizer at WalMart on clearance for $20. The package claimed to solve all my problems...$20 it's worth a try. After installing, it over doubled my speed in corners, jumped on plane with a holeshot, top speed now was 53mph, the motor got the "wine" at WOT...a new boat. The Sting Ray provided the stern lift needed to hold the bow down and held enough water on the prop to get traction. The next spring I got the equalizers and the stopped the bow wonder at slow speeds.

Trim tabs are a great way to add lift in the stern. IMHO the smart tabs have drawbacks. I would opt to make oldschool manual adjust tabs on our Manta Ray if a Sting Ray is not enough.

is a stingray that thingie that attaches to the cavitation plate. if yes...how does it attach? i also cavitate in turns while porpoising. ron

Yes Ron, commonly called "whale tails." Stingrays are a well known brand. They are supposed to do the same thing my Smart Tabs did, but with varying results. Like Smart Tabs, they work for some, not all. Plus they usually require drilling holes in your cavitation plate which some people says weakens the plate.

I looked at those, as well as the Smart Tabs pretty closely, and went for the Smart Tabs.

Google Stingray stabilizer and read all about them.

Frank

been reading and sport marine "se sport 300" have them with a no drilling required "sport clip" lifetime warranty..$100 bucks.
if the sand bags don't work i'm ordering them...west marine
i know these have been discussed before but no where could i find "hydrofoils" on search engine.

I run a Bob's Machine 'True Tracker'. Believe it was less than $50 bucks. Extremely happy with it.

Buddy of mine was flapping his lips one day saying "tails" don't do anything. So I took it off for a sober comparison test. The results were immediately noticable. Slower outa the hole. Had to drop the bow to keep it from porpoising at cruising speed. And virtually uncontrollable at ludicrous speed due to chinewalk. He shut up after that.

Saw some hot shot flats boat guys on Boca Grande running True Trackers with no steering trim tab on the motor so figgered I'd give it a try. She never missed it. Couldn't tell it was ever there. Have since plugged the tab hole in the Tracker. Then polished it up. Gained almost 1.5 mph all told.

I realize we may be talking apples & oranges here but this works very well for me.

Whatever you do use a flat "tail" vs a "wing", a la DoelFin, etc. If it has the side profile of a wing ya don't want it and I'll tell ya why. Yes wings create lift and stability but they also create drag. 'Specially when you try to drag one through water.

The way I look at it it's just an extention/enlargement of the cav plate. Which is, hopefully, flat & parallel to the propshaft?

Btw I can't see how drilling four 1/4" holes in the cav plate could weaken it much. Truth be known I sometimes use the true tracker as a boarding step?

What year and kind of motor do you have this Bob's Machine 'True Tracker' on? Do you have any pics of it mounted? What model 'True Tracker' is yours?

Thanks.

Frank

well i got the 50 pounders in da boat. i couldn't lift them over the foot cross member while laying on my back so i leaned the bags up against it. would of loved to have gotten them closer to the front but........will test next week if its not to hot.