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TOPIC: ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats?

ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 9 months ago #120556

  • Shake
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Hi just wondering what the scoring system was on fiberglassics with the ACBS. thanks

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Golden Rule number one; While working in the bilge, absolutely under no circumstances, NO FARTING!!!! Captn Shake aka Joe.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 9 months ago #120560

joe,, the acbs judging rules for glass boats varies among the different chapters. they only started inviting glass boats i think in the early 2000s, and they aren't that familiar with what is original,restored,customized ,etc. as an example one chapter will deduct points for an un-period correct color where others won't, simply because they are unfamiliar with what is original. most of the judges depend on the honesty of the owners to tell them the history of the boat. having brochures of your year and make of your boat helps them significantly. my chapter allows a 2 year difference between boat and motor, other chapters might require they both be the same year. i installed a console, with gauges and cd player which is a deduction of a few points, changing upholstery, adding mirrors or a horn, changing the steering,non-original drain plugs,transom/trailer straps, dirty outboard, gelcoat cracks, and it goes on and on. every chapter has judged my boat differently, but mostly depends on the honesty of the owner. hope this helps, ron

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 9 months ago #120625

Joe, Ron is right with his comments. I invite members of Fiberglassics.com to help us determine a fair and equitable scoring system for classic fiberglass boats. Please contact me and I will put you in touch with our judging committee chair. Your involvement will help the hobby!

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #120975

ACBS did issue revised score-sheets in 2014 and added one specifically for non-wood outboards. I had been bugging them about that for about six months and had the opportunity to provide my input to John Howard and his committee back in May, 2014. They were approved at the September, 2014 ACBS Annual Meeting and were published on September 20, 2014.

Key thing is not all chapters use the "official" ACBS score-sheets - it's up to the local chapters on how they judge boats.

Our local North Coast Ohio Chapter does use them.

Attached is the current "official" score-sheet for non-wood outboards, dated 9/20/2014. I think it's quite good. Note there is an automatic 5 point deduction if a restored fiberglass boat has been painted, but came with gelcoat from the factory. The closer to factory original, the better the boat will do in judging, which is consistent with how wood boats are judged.

I joined ACBS in November, 2013 and own two small fiberglass outboard boats: a 1966 MFG Niagara and a 1970 Arrow Glass Flyer. I've been treated with nothing but respect and friendliness since I joined. I currently serve as Treasurer for the North Coast Ohio Chapter.

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File Name: Non_Wood_O...2014.pdf
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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121401

  • 63g3
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Hi all,

This is great to see. I've been showing vintage glass since 1998, with a few woodies interspersed, mostly outboards, glass and wood but, a few glass inboards. No doubt glass participation is increasing which is good, as that generally brings new members. Showing keeps me motivated for correctness and good workmanship while going through a restoration and attending is the little reward at the completion, but that's me.
Where I show outboards and glass I do think the ACBS needs a few more categories with the wide variety of glass showing up. Lumping all outboards together and then all non wood together seems to broad. This isn't so everyone goes home a winner, I believe there are distinctions to be made. There are several wood boat categories for this reason.
There should be a preserved class...this helps keep people motivated to keep good examples original when the barn find comes along. Glass more than wood can be a true original due to finish durability. Way more likely to find an original glass boat still looking good that can still be used and maintained as is, but they are disappearing fast.
As far as restorations, I agree with the gel vs paint but, at 5 points deduct a painted resto will never get a first place. I would almost have a "painted"class and a gel class or a smaller deduct. The gel should be more prestigious given the work it takes but there are just stunning beautiful restored glass boats that are painted, that in of itself should not relegate it to second place.
Then maybe two sub categories within both preserved and restored for outboard and non ( jets, I/O, inboard, etc.) In judging hardware is something more attention should be paid too, I usually find that the most challenging to get correct, interiors too. Usually something is missing, junk or damaged. There is not a good network of parts for any given specific manufacturer but, many used the same suppliers so that helps in the hunt, but important the scoring reflects that extra effort in getting these details right or wrong as it were. I would promote vintage boating stuff to be displayed in the boat like skis, coolers, hand pumps fire extinguishers, boat fenders etc. as it's fun to see this old boating stuff too. Don't give points but, don't deduct either. I always fear a deduct for an item not perfect so I don't display it but I usually have collected many excellent but, not perfect accessory items correct for the period that would have been in the boat as used originally.
I'm not sure all the different classes are needed just yet but, as diversity grows in the spirit of promoting
the preservation of a variety of classics it seems like categories should be available. Once boats are registered it would be easy to determine which available categories should be in play and boats grouped which ever way makes sense. So the categories could be created but don't have to be used at any given show.
My 2 cents.
Randy

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121403

Randy, all great comments!

My goal back in 2014 was just to get a non-wood outboard sheet added. Until then, there was a non-wood sheet, but it clearly was geared for those with inboards. There were two outboard sheets, one for tiller outboard boats and one for outboards with steering (i.e. remote controls), but both were geared for wood boats. Today, for non-wood boats, there is now a revised sheet for those with inboards and the new sheet for those with outboards. At the time, I also was thinking that there could be additional categories, but in talking to the judging people, it seemed to make sense to start by adding just a non-wood outboard sheet, as that alone would cover a lot of ground. Within that, there can be boats of any age (Historic, Antique, Classic, and Late Classic as of now) and also Preserved or Restored. Not perfect, but a whole lot better than it was. At the shows I've been, there has been no distinction between Preserved and Restored for non-wood boats, but then at those shows, non-wood boats have only been about 10% of the total number of boats shown.

On the 5 point deduction for paint instead of gelcoat. I suggested that, and it was adopted. At the time I was wrestling in my own mind whether that should be 2, 3 or 5 points off. Maybe 3 points would be better, but then it kills the whole idea of factory original. I know there could be a separate category, for any type of boat, for "restomods", but then, I think judging would turn into purely subjective event, as one man's beauty is another's, well, not so much. I think the judges have a tough enough job as it is.

Good news is, a new sheet did get added two years ago, it's being used at many shows, and as time goes on and more fiberglass (and aluminum) boats get entered in shows, the judging system will continue to evolve.

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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121412

davnau6345,

Everyone has great points about the point judging. But now I have to wonder about your comment about paint VS gelcoat ?
If I’m not mistaken ? In the wood judging world there is a “preserved”, “restored”, and “reproduction” class when it comes to the boat wood ?
When it comes to original Gelcoat or a “RE-Gelcoat” would you then have make similar judging classes for glass boats as “Preserved” or “restored”
And if you have to replace or re-make everything transom or interior wise, because it was all gone when you got the boat, does it become a “reproduction” ?

These kind questions will always haunt Judged… ANYTHING, whether it a boat, car, motorcycle etc. You can keep creating classes to satisfy everyone ????
Then people will still fight with the judges or each other over points ?

Don't get me wrong ? I love being a member of the ACBS, and have been sine the early 1990's BUT .....

I was cured of judging a boat years ago over a story of two perfect boats at a show (pre-point only judging), BUT one of them had to get second. After two sets of judges looked over both boat.
Second place was determined, because a judge crawled under the deck with a flashlight and looked at the back of the instrument panel, and “get this” The judge saw a hint of the plastic color coated wire
Protruding out of the period correct cloth covered wire, at the instrument connection post. This is just way to picky for me???

This is why I will most likely never have any of my stuff judged ? The rules are too complicated for me, and It’s not worth it to me.
Because if I’m happy with the time I spent fixing, tinkering, spending money on, and I like the way my boat looks ? It’s a hundred pointer, And I say “winner ,winner chicken dinner”
and it time to go celebrate, with a beer !

Sorry ? This is my opinion. Since my opinion is 100 percent correct, and your opinion is flawed ? I win, you lose where is my trophy ?

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121424

The whole judging aspect can be tricky, but I agree it serves a purpose to try to do well done and "factory correct" restorations.

That said, I think the point on preserved is well taken. Since my skills for restoration are minimal, and I would need to rely oh the work of others, I've found it fun to try to find original and unrestored boats in good condition. That's not an easy job - took me a year to find my MFG Niagara. Finding a boat with good original gelcoat makes things a whole lot easier, but those boats will continue to get harder and harder to find as time goes on.

On judging, the whole ACBS judging system .pdf is too large to be attached here, but ACBS members have access to it on the member side of acbs.com. The introductory sections before the actual score-sheets go into great instructional detail for judges.

If anyone else wants to see it, let me know and I'll forward it to you. A lot of thought and years of refinements have gone into it, and I'm sure it will continue to evolve over time, just as this hobby has evolved.

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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121434

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As a follow up to my earlier post, it looks like various chapters handle scoring awards and categories differently.
My experience is there could be many first, second and third places it's a score based system as an example to demonstrate what I mean for instance 97 and up is a first, 93 up is second, 90 up a third. That way no ridiculous detail hunt for an absolute winner. Leave that to people's choice, judges choice, and the boat participants would most want to take home catagories.
Don't spend money on big trophies, medallions could be fine and don't have the class listed or name of winner, gets too expensive/ complicated for the smaller club shows, a national event would be different.
As long as we are on this topic, I really do dislike the reproduction class, this should not be a "nice boat club"
It introduces the guy with the most money wins rather than some level of historical preservation. We had a several hundred thousand dollar Comitti and a new Riva at the last show, nice boats in fact, outrageously nice, and cool to see one up close but I was at a loss looking at the cool little Lyman outboard someone obsessed to get near perfect that had to dock next to these. Add to that the remade hackers chris crafts etc. on some level it seemed silly to have 10 plus new boats on display. Not even sure what you score other than condition they are all " original". But that's a class I'm sure won't be rescinded, so in just spouting off. Imagine if a similar glass category was suggested....makes this notion of reproduction kinda off point for the club no?
MHO

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 years 8 months ago #121456

Just to clarify, there is no ACBS class called "Reproduction". If a wood boat, and this only applies to wood boats, is entered in a show that is less than 25 years old, then it is automatically in the "Contemporary" class. (Non-wood boats less than 25 years old don't fit into any ACBS class for judging - they are just a "new" boat".)

So yes, someone can go out and spend big bucks for a brand new Gar Wood, Hacker-Craft or Skiff Craft, or whatever boat some successor company is making brand new that is essentially a reproduction of some earlier model, and enter it in a show in the "Contemporary" class. To me, that class is the least interesting, because they are reproductions, no matter how well made. But that's just my opinion.

I've also wondered about a wood boat that has has 98% of it's wood replaced, but was done a piece at a time and always still looked like a boat while being restored, but, still, has had almost all the wood replaced. I finally decided in my mind that's OK, because the owner was replacing the material, wood in this case, that can rot over time. So, if someone finds an old Hacker-Craft that sat in a field totally exposed for 40 years, and that someone finally buys it, and restores it to like it was when it left the factory, but had to replace almost all the wood to do it, that's OK, and better in my mind than going out and just buying brand new reproduction (Contemporary) equivalent. Yet, there is a place for the new one too, because it might take 10 or more years to restore that original boat, and maybe someone has the money and does not want to wait that long. There are trade-offs to everything.

For aluminum and fiberglass, there is more to work with because the materials don't deteriorate as quickly, nor in the same way.

That said, leaving a boat outside, totally exposed to the elements for years, will eventually destroy any boat. So, let's take care of what is already out there, and once restored, keep it covered inside a garage when not in use.

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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 months 3 weeks ago #137698

An update to this old topic.

Many of you may already know this, but ACBS is now recognizing non-wood boats as 'Preserved' or "Restored". In addition, the judging system now does not have specific first, second, and thirds in a specific class. Now, they give Silver (87-91 points), Gold (92-96 points), and Platinum (97-100 points), and there can be lots of boats getting Silver, Gold, or Platinum in a particular category. They often also give out the specific awards like Best Non-Wood, Best Preserved (Wood), Best Restored (Wood).

For example, "Little Blue", my 1966 14' MFG Niagara with a 1963 Mercury 350 outboard, got Platinum at the recent ACBS International Boat Show in Port Huron. That award was in the Classic Outboard Preserved category, which this year also included stern-drive boats. Since there were not all that many Classic outboards/stern-drives, wood and non-wood were lumped together. One of the Platinum boats, a beautiful blue 1965 15' Larson All-American, got the most points of any of the non-wood boats, and thus won Best Non-Wood.

It was a great show. My goal in working with ACBS is to grow the fiberglass (and aluminum) boat turnout to this yearly event, with a goal of having 50 fiberglassics there by five years from now. There are too many great boats out there that need to be shown to folks, rather than just get run at the local lake.

There was talk at the ACBS Annual Meeting, also held in Port Huron at the same time, of trying to crate a "Restomod" category, but that may take a while to sort out. That is a much more subjective category for judging, because as of now boats are judged compared to "factory original". With a Restomod, what do you compare too?

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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.

Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 months 3 weeks ago #137746

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This is all good,but I have in the past did alot of acbs shows and appreciate them for doing what they do,bbuutt some chapters it doesnt matter what you do to your boat or how it is judged,if you dont go to the banquet you cant win anything,,Im not a trophy chaser but when some one asked me after the show why I didnt win,my question is to the acbs,,are you judging me or the boat,I thought it was a boat show. Bill Anderson

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Re:ACBS Show scoring system on fiberglass boats? 2 months 2 weeks ago #137765

I know that for the ACBS International Show each September, and for the annual show our North Coast Ohio (NCO) Chapter of ACBS puts on each June at Portage Lakes, Ohio, you do not have to be present at the awards banquet to get an award. Sometimes people have leave right after the show, for a variety of reasons, and that's OK. If you win, your award is still announced at the awards banquet, and is shipped to the home address used to register for the show. Other chapters may do something different.

I've also found that not all chapters use the official ACBS scoring sheets, and may use sheets developed by that local chapter. Official ACBS scoring sheets for non-wood boats do exist, for both outboard and inboard-powered, and were adopted by ACBS at the annual meeting in September, 2014. Our local NCO chapter always uses the official scoring sheets from ACBS. All ACBS members have access to these sheets. The worksheets that apply to fiberglass, aluminum, plastic, and steel boats are labeled NON-WOOD OUTBD and NON-WOOD INBD in the Excel spreadsheet. Members, after logging in, can go to:

myacbs.org/Archive/Document?filename=handbook%2FH.%20Judging%20Score%20Sheet.xls

There was a new wood inboard sheet adopted at the just completed 2018 annual meeting, and it is at:

myacbs.org/Archive/Document?filename=handbook%2FH.%202018%20ACBS%20scoresheet%204-2018.xlsx

Hope this helps to clarify these issues.

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Dave Nau - 1966 MFG Niagara with 1963 Mercury 350 (35hp) outboard and 1966 Tee Nee trailer. Second boat is a 1962 MFG Edinboro with a 1984 Evinrude 70hp and Holsclaw trailer.
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